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Eric119

Differences between Atari Lynx and CC2 engines

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Brian Raiter suggested created a thread to discuss the differences between Atari Lynx behavior and the CC2 engine which is also used for the rerelease of CC1. He has written up some differences here:

 

http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tworld/rulecomp2.html

 

random 8 has also posted some here:

 

http://cczone.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/1151-tile-world-131/?p=34076

 

Here are some more differences between Atari Lynx and Windows versions:

 

* You no longer get stuck in teleports if there is no available exit.

* Level borders consistently act as barriers.

* Pausing now hides the display (it shows entirely as floor tiles).

* When you have more than one key of a color, the number of keys is displayed. If the number is greater than 9 but less than 128, a + is displayed. For 128 or more there is neither a number nor a + displayed, just as for when you have one key.

* There can now be an unlimited number of creatures on the map, and clone machines cannot run out.

* The Melinda skip feature has been dropped; you can now skip levels at any time.

* You can freely navigate to different levels without resetting.

* You always get the full level bonus when completing a level.

* The timer is reset properly, so you always get the full first second. Also, there do not seem to be different "steppings" for the teeth movement.

* The initial direction for the directional force floors is now north.

* On Atari Lynx, if you start out on top of a collectable item you will collect it if you start the level without moving (not so in Tile World!!). You do not collect it in Windows.

* Clone machines behave differently. In particular the "release boosting" and "clone desynchronization" phenomena seem not to be present. (See thread http://cczone.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/167-possible-new-glitch-in-tile-world-lynx-clone-desynchronization/. Note that is is not, in fact, a glitch in Tile World.)

* In the editor, there are settings for three versions of blob movement, "Deterministic", "4 Patterns" (as in Atari Lynx), and "Extra random". (While we're on the subject, the Windows version appears to use the same PRNG as Atarl Lynx. How exactly this interacts with the different blob modes has not been determined.)

 

Some differences between Tile World's Lynx mode and Windows versions:

 

* The limitation to holding 255 keys of one color from the Atari Lynx is still present in Windows. Getting a 256th key of a color resets your key count to 0.

* If you are on top of a collectable item that blocks monster movement, you are safe from monsters in Tile World Lynx. Not so in Windows. (Note: in Atari Lynx, if a monster starts out adjacent to you, and you start without moving, the monster will bounce off as you simultaneously collect the item.)

 

 

The inconsistency between Tile World and Atari Lynx with regards to starting on top of an item surprised me, and I just discovered it today. I hope there are not too many custom levels that would be broken by this.

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Thanks, Eric. There's a lot of stuff here, and I'll need to find a block of time to aggregate it all.

 

I assume "release boosting" refers to the skipped frame that happens when a creature leaves a clone machine or a beartrap. I don't know what "clone desynchronization" refers to (though I'm glad it's not a glitch in Tile World). random8 also referred to a "teleport-stacking glitch" -- which glitch is that?

 

Thanks for the note about starting out on an item! I'll add it to the Tile World bug list.

 

I'm surprised by your "full first second" comment. Didn't the Lynx always give you a full first second?

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Thanks, Eric. There's a lot of stuff here, and I'll need to find a block of time to aggregate it all.

 

I assume "release boosting" refers to the skipped frame that happens when a creature leaves a clone machine or a beartrap. I don't know what "clone desynchronization" refers to (though I'm glad it's not a glitch in Tile World). random8 also referred to a "teleport-stacking glitch" -- which glitch is that?

 

Thanks for the note about starting out on an item! I'll add it to the Tile World bug list.

 

I'm surprised by your "full first second" comment. Didn't the Lynx always give you a full first second?

 

If a creature on a clone machine is processed later than the creature that pushed the clone button, then it gets an ordinary move in addition to the skipped frame. But if the creature was processed earlier, then it doesn't get that move. Suppose there is a clone machine whose clones push the button for the same clone machine, and then later die in water. If there are two such setups side by side, then even if the monsters are initially abreast of each other, they (may) eventually get more and more desynchronized. This is because sometimes one of the monsters leaving the clone machine will get an extra move and the other won't, and over time the difference becomes more pronounced. If the clone machines are controlled by completely different monsters, there can still occasionally be one clone ahead of the other, but it won't add up over time.

 

I just tried the Lynx again, and it definitely appears to not always give the full second. Some beta versions of CC2 had the same issue (as seen in JB's Let's Play.)

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The inconsistency between Tile World and Atari Lynx with regards to starting on top of an item surprised me, and I just discovered it today. I hope there are not too many custom levels that would be broken by this.

That would make Loose Pocket from CCLP1 totally busted.

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random8 also referred to a "teleport-stacking glitch" -- which glitch is that?

 

gallery_112_3_1674.png

 

If Chip enters the teleport on the left, he'll always exit the teleport on the right (and live).

 

Also, after reading Eric's post, it seems being stuck in a teleport isn't a Tile World glitch like i thought.

Edited by random 8

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That would make Loose Pocket from CCLP1 totally busted.

 

Yeah. And I just discovered something else: you can actually win instantly if you start on the exit! Also you can die in water (but not fire or bombs) and clear away dirt. And if you start on ice, you're permanently stuck with the ice slide sound effect playing. In TW you would start sliding. All this starts to make me wonder: do different versions of the ROM have different behavior?

 

Also, there's some more differences I missed:

 

* In Atari Lynx, there's no sound effect when monsters go through teleports. There is in the Windows version.

* In Atari Lynx, the game locks up when starting a level if there's a trap button and no traps (similarly for clone buttons). The Windows version does not lock up.

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If a creature on a clone machine is processed later than the creature that pushed the clone button, then it gets an ordinary move in addition to the skipped frame. But if the creature was processed earlier, then it doesn't get that move.

 

So "clone desynchronization" is just "release boosting" under a different name, if I understand you correctly. It's the same effect in both cases. (Basically: when initiating an involuntary move due to a button press, the first frame happens when the button is pushed.)

 

I actually did write up a description of release boosting back when I first figured it out, but it was just a post I made to the annexcafe newsgroup, and I never saved a copy of it anywhere else. Perhaps I should have. This was the big bug that I fixed for the 0.5 release. I spent hours examining the game running under Handy before I figured out what was going on.

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gallery_112_3_1674.png

 

If Chip enters the teleport on the left, he'll always exit the teleport on the right (and live).

 

Well, the same thing happens on the original Lynx game as well. But that's only because the right-hand tank COMPLETELY DISAPPEARS. What the heck happened to that other tank? It got lost in the transporter buffer and never found it's way back out.

 

But I assume that the "teleport-stacking" bug is actually meant to refer to Chip's ability to use a teleporter even when something is parked on top of it? That's probably not correct.

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In level 120 (ALPHABET SOUP), in the lowercase-d room, you may recall that one of the three blocks has a bomb underneath it. In CC1, this has been changed to a block covering a ... water tile. I have no idea why this change was made.

 

Any block that starts the level on top of a bomb immediately explodes once you start. Though, I swear an earlier version of this level still had block/bomb combo before it was seemingly updated.

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Any block that starts the level on top of a bomb immediately explodes once you start. Though, I swear an earlier version of this level still had block/bomb combo before it was seemingly updated.

I reported this in the CC2 bug list over a month ago, and i remember checking it in the editor beforehand. It definitely used to be a bomb.

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On the Atari Lynx, Chip can begin moving onto a closed toggle wall the tick before it will open, while in TW Lynx and CC2 engine Chip must wait until the tick the wall opens.

 

Interestingly, this has the effect that a monster 1 tile away will kill Chip in TW/CC2 but not on the Atari version.

TOG###
GLE###
WAL###
 ^ <MO
CH NST
IP ER<

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On the Atari Lynx, Chip can begin moving onto a closed toggle wall the tick before it will open, while in TW Lynx and CC2 engine Chip must wait until the tick the wall opens.

Is that TW1 or 2? My experience with TW2 says Chip always gets that early tick.

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"And I just discovered something else: you can actually win instantly if you start on the exit!"

 

Well that breaks "Start at the End" - type levels, doesn't it?

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It does. And that's a bit of a pickle. Normally I would roll out a fix for this entire class of bugs, but I hate to completely ruin the point of two (or more?) levels in CCLP1 by doing so.

 

These two levels could be fixed in Lynx just by moving Chip one square over, so that he starts out on the force floor in front of the object (key or exit), instead of on the object itself. But then that breaks the MS version of the level. So Chip would have to be moved two squares away. That's not ideal, but it's the best idea I've had so far. Any other ideas?

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There are certainly ways to make them "start NEAR the exit" levels.  I don't suppose you can place an exit beneath a pink toggle door and then set Chip on top of it?

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Over the last several years in the CC community, "Lynx mode" has come to mean Tile World 1.3.0+'s emulation of the Lynx rules, and several levels (in CCLP3 and CCLP1 and CCLP2-lynx as well as in many custom sets) have been designed and played around it.  Any of the remaining differences between the TW and original Atari implementations may be interesting, but fixing them has the potential to bust the levels or make them unsolvable or break TWS solutions and scores.  So it seems to me that this would be more of an inconvenience to most people.  I'd prefer to have all such changes go into "-pedantic" mode and leave the current TW Lynx rules unchanged.

 

- Madhav.

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I can understand that point of view, but that certainly wasn't my goal when I set out to write Tile World. Right now, the stuff that is under "pedantic mode" are extensions to the original rules. Things like permitting arbitrary trap wirings or thin walls to the north are things that the original game couldn't do at all.

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The end that I "think" we all want is an emulator that will do what CC2 now does on Steam, in case we ever lose Steam.

 

Keeping the existing MS, Lynx and Pedantic modes as-is seems completely reasonable, as you can then play any set in its intended mode.

 

Of course what I REALLY want is a version I can play on a hand-held (even if that means a PSP with Unix).  I know playing on my phone (even my Windows phone) is just not realistic -- which makes me sad but is understandable.

 

If there were a way to make Tile World extensible that would be awesome, but I understand that's a horse of a completely different color.  I also understand that adding CC2-items to TileWorld is a large undertaking...one that I don't have the time or understanding to manage.

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Of course what I REALLY want is a version I can play on a hand-held (even if that means a PSP with Unix).  I know playing on my phone (even my Windows phone) is just not realistic -- which makes me sad but is understandable.

If you happen to have an Open Pandora handheld you can play it, but it's quite expensive and they just sold the last of the final production run earlier this year.

I quite like playing it on mine, (I recompiled TW 2 for it myself)

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Well if I HAD a cool thousand to spend on a handheld (and any clue how compile tileworld) I might be tempted.  Pretty awesome though.

 

If I had any time I suppose I could read through the tileworld source code, but I tried this before and just got super-confuzzled.  And I'm older now so the synapses are even slower.

 

It would be awesome (and probably will never happen) if you could just have a table with object type, movable, pushable, interaction rules, etc.  Maybe next life I will come back in 1992 and start working on it.

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They actually go for about $300, and you wouldn't have to compile it as it's released on the openpandora repo.

Totally not worth it just for Chip's Challenge though :P

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