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Zygote Pack - Discussion

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This is the official discussion thread for CCLP4 voting's Zygote Pack. Feel free to share your thoughts, opinions, and comments on the levels here!

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1: That's a weird maze. I know the only purpose of the level is for it to have a strict time limit, but there are better such levels.

 

2: This is a really simple maze. Too simple.

 

3: I think this is better than the Mini-Challenges in CCLP3.

 

4: I get it. This whole piece of nonsense is a reference to Lesson 1. But I think it's terrible.

 

5: There are several levels where there are several different ways to exit. This one, from Po100T, is not one of the best.

 

6: This is not one of the best ice mazes around.

 

7: This level feels absolutely pointless.

 

8: It's a decent level.

 

9: It's a small puzzle, and it's fun.

 

10: I've seen better block levels.

 

11: The keys are not required. I don't know if this is intended. Either way, I struggled for several days with this level, before I finally managed to figure out the solution.

 

12: The concept is interesting, but I think the level is too large, so it takes a long time before Chip actually knows what needs to be done. Also, going against the glider flow is especially frustrating.

 

13: A positive key puzzle.

 

14: This should be level 147 of CCLP4. Out of all the levels that get their own CCZone awards, this is the only one that is really fun (except the most insane level ever! but it's not in the voting pool).

 

15: This is a very fun level.

 

16: Sigh...I guess CCLP4 needs some walker levels...at least this one has water...

 

17: More like madness and folly, with very little wisdom in the design.

 

18: The trick is rather clever, but seriously this is not CCLP material.

 

19: Nothing special, really. Quite boring.

 

20: It's a decent ice maze, but I've seen better.

 

21: You know it's possible to just pick up two boots at the start and pick up all the chips except those in the former rooms just like that? Either way, I've seen better mazes with this theme.

 

22: I remember playing this in one of the Ultimate Chip sets, and I think it is ordinary.

 

23: This is basically simple dodging. No interesting puzzles or anything, just dodging.

 

24: This is a really bad level, I think. The only decent part is the hint.

 

25: Worst level in the voting pool so far. Seriously, it is extremely unequal and just plain pointless.

 

26: That's one way of making a rush level. Better than some others...

 

27: This is one of the few decent Rock levels. Some players may find the password offensive though.

 

28: Seriously? What a pointless dodging level.

 

29: I hate digging levels so much. Urggh.

 

30: Yes, it's a puzzle, but a tedious one.

 

31: A better level than most of the ones I just played, but still absolutely ordinary.

 

32: I've seen better sokobans. This one is extremely easy to cook.

 

33: This seems like a Lynx-compatible version of one of Cybersmack's levels. In the end, I think it's ordinary.

 

34: At first I was very sceptical about this level, but in the end it's fun.

 

35: Why do people make painful dodging levels like this?

 

36: An amazing concept. It's great to finally have a good level after so many ordinary ones...

 

37: Dave Varberg, I guess. Decent sokoban.

 

38: Some rooms are good. Others, not so much.

 

39: It's a good fire level.

 

40: It's just a toggle maze. The title is accurate. In the end, it's rather good, I guess...

 

41: I've seen better sokobans.

 

42: I think this was in Ultimate Chip 4. I think it's ordinary.

 

43: I prefer blue wall mazes without any major puzzles, just the maze please.

 

44: I remember playing this in JCCLP, and raging on it.

 

45: This is an amazing concept.

 

46: One of the best levels of the pack.

 

47: I don't get the title, and the level is nothing special.

 

48: This was in JoshL6 and JCCLP2. In the end, I like it.

 

49: This is a creative concept, although it is a bit short.

 

50: CCLP4 will need some blob levels, but this one is beyond annoying.

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18: The trick is rather clever, but seriously this is not CCLP material.

 

I wonder what you mean when you say a level isn't CCLP material. Yes this level is easy, but I feel it would fit well in the early part of CCLP4.

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I wonder what you mean when you say a level isn't CCLP material. Yes this level is easy, but I feel it would fit well in the early part of CCLP4.

 

Sure, it is a fun level, but I think it would have been better suited for CCLP1 than CCLP4. The first levels of CCLP2 and CCLP3 were harder than this.

 

CCLPs are supposed to be contain the best levels made by the community, and this level, like many others, while it is fun, it is not one of the best.

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Sure, it is a fun level, but I think it would have been better suited for CCLP1 than CCLP4. The first levels of CCLP2 and CCLP3 were harder than this.

 

Hmmm maybe. I think it could have fit into the first ten levels of CCLP3. Regardless, CCLP4 does not need to have the same difficulty curve as CCLP3, and some people have felt that CCLP3's difficulty spikes too early.

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CCLPs are supposed to be contain the best levels made by the community, and this level, like many others, while it is fun, it is not one of the best.

 

I have to disagree with this to a certain extent. Yes it is true CCLPs contain good levels made by various community members, however, this is never true for every level included in a CCLP; a prime example of this would be Occupied of CCLP1.

 

In general, I don't believe there's a true definition to "CCLP material". Even if there is, it's subjective. As long as a level is fun to solve and play, and/or shows off a good concept, it's suitable and at least deserves a chance for a CCLP, no matter what difficulty it is.

 

That being all said, I agree In the Pool would also make a great level in the first or second decade of CCLP4. :)

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some people have felt that CCLP3's difficulty spikes too early.

I agree.

 

In general, I don't believe there's a true definition to "CCLP material". Even if there is, it's subjective. As long as a level is fun to solve and play, and/or shows off a good concept, it's suitable and at least deserves a chance for a CCLP, no matter what difficulty it is.

I agree with this too.  Perhaps I am a little too strict with my personal definition of "CCLP material".

 

Either way, in a few months I will go back and review my votes, and possibly change some of them.

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Occupied of CCLP1.

I actually like Occupied!

 

11: The keys are not required. I don't know if this is intended. Either way, I struggled for several days with this level, before I finally managed to figure out the solution.

 

21: You know it's possible to just pick up two boots at the start and pick up all the chips except those in the former rooms just like that? Either way, I've seen better mazes with this theme.

Oceanic Citrus: getting the keys cooks the level, as far as I could tell.

Pot of Plasma: Originally, that wasn't intended, but I actually kind of like that it's possible.

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I've finished with not only evaluating the levels in this pack, but also with a huge project for work. Hopefully I'll have a bit more time for CCLP4 voting here in the days ahead. :) For now, some thoughts on a handful of levels in this pack:

 

#1 (Still): There's a conversation earlier in this thread about what constitutes "CCLP material." I love rating individual levels in voting cycles like this, but a potential downside is that it's easy to view each level as an individual achievement instead of a part of a collective whole. Perhaps in some respects, this could be why there's been some degree of homogeneity in the upper tiers of voting results, with difficult levels (CCLP3) and agreeable levels (CCLP1) edging out other types of levels. My personal philosophy is to evaluate each level on its own merits. I think CCLPs deserve different kinds of levels, and a "quick race for the exit"-style challenge is no exception. This level stands out for me because of its design aesthetic and tight but manageable time limit, and I certainly wouldn't mind seeing it late in the set as a short breather after some tough challenges.

 

#3 (Mini Challenges (No-Luck)): What helped Mini Challenges from CCLP3 stand out was its flow. There was a near-perfect balance struck between cruising along and having to stop and make sure you were making a wise choice before pressing onward. This level didn't quite accomplish this in my book: some of the segments were a bit tedious (block cloning), tight (ball dodging), or just involved too much careful stepping that the momentum felt killed. It's well-designed, but I'm ambivalent about seeing it in CCLP4 compared to its predecessor.

 

#5 (Road to Victory): I was tempted to avoid replaying levels I rated for CCLP1, but I decided to do so anyway and see if any new insights came about. This level is a good example of that working out pretty well: I loved this concept back when I first played it, mainly because no one else had designed a level that executed it in quite this way. But it just didn't click this time. Part of what makes it somewhat frustrating is that the "roads" overlap to such a degree that you wonder what has to be used where, sometimes to the point where you end up using a key on the wrong door or recessed walls that you're not supposed to pass through. It's a neat idea, and I commend the designer for constructing it fairly well, but it's a bit too vague in some places.

 

#11 (Oceanic Citrus): This level slipped under my radar before voting, mainly because it was originally featured in a rejects set. Personally, I think that's a shame, because it's absolutely my favorite level from the designer who built it. Compared to Limitation from the previous pack, I enjoy this one much more as a "which block is used where?" puzzle, primarily because it's non-linear, and you can explore the entire map from the start. Overall, a fascinating, elegant challenge that I'd love to see in the final set.

 

#13 (Key Insight): Getting back to the topic of "flow" mentioned earlier: I enjoy when a level recognizes that you've just conquered something a bit brain-bending and gives you a few easier challenges afterward. This level does just that - and since it was designed to test the parameters of the tile palette-themed Create Competition in which it was featured, I can't help but wonder if it was intentional from a gameplay perspective, or if the rooms on the west side were placed there simply to use up the tiles in the palette. Either way, it's really fun as a mediumweight key use puzzle without a lot of heavy thinking or long gameplay.

 

#14 (Lounge Act): I'm thinking back to a blog post I wrote here on CCZone a while back about how difficulty can be frustrating if a level features too many types of difficulty (red herrings, rigidly linear structure, ultra-long length, tough puzzles, etc.) smashed together. This is at least one reason why I think many players found the end of CCLP3 unbearable, especially with so many of these types of levels in a row. For me, at least, this particular level comes dangerously close. I love the theme. I love many of the puzzles. But it certainly checks off many of those difficulty boxes mentioned above all at once - and what makes it frustrating is that with room to maneuver all the blocks to different places and back when necessary, there are so many different ways to get lost about what to do and what gets used where. I finally had to look up a solution to get past the first half of this level, and that was after my entire understanding of it was shattered and rebuilt at least twice. Like I mentioned in my comments for Space Station, "gotcha" moments can be fun in levels when used well. This level revels in them to the point where the solution gets muddled by its own cleverness. I ended up appreciating Gimmick Isle a lot more after playing this, primarily because it had a more discernible structure, which made the puzzle-solving more manageable and less obtuse. I wouldn't be upset if this level made it into CCLP4 in the ultra-difficult challenge slot, but it's not my favorite candidate for that position. If it does appear in CCLP4, I hope it's untimed.

 

#20 (Five by Five): Last night, there was a fascinating short discussion in the CC Skype chat about the merits of this kind of "pen-and-paper" navigation puzzle where the player has to map out a solution. Personally, I like the idea, but the way this level is built was less fun for me than a SHORT CIRCUIT or even a modulo fourteen. It came across like a Knight's Tour challenge in which all of the moves had to be discovered first before any sort of solution could be mapped, with only a thin amount of consistency woven throughout as far as what was connected where. It was one layer of puzzle too many for me compared to other navigation challenges.

 

#34 (Corresponding): I really enjoyed this as a logic / process-of-elimination puzzle. I'm always naturally gravitated toward levels where you can explore and see what you can do before you actually do anything, and this is a great example that doesn't get terribly complex and burdensome.

 

#45 (Anaconda): A navigation conundrum that doesn't overstay its welcome and manages to get some dodging in as well would be fun to see in a CCLP. One of my favorites in voting for sure.

 

#48 (Zephyr Heights): I'm kind of naturally biased toward this level because I spent hours of fun optimizing it in an airport while waiting for a delayed flight. But outside the world of optimization, it stands on its own as a fun force floor slide maze and chip collecting jaunt with some monster dodging thrown in for good measure. I love the aesthetic with the blocks and the little alcoves where you can collect items as well. It all adds up to a neat, enjoyable level that could help players develop their timing skills early on in CCLP4.

 

#50 (Blobhunt): This was really painful to solve.

 

Favorite level: Oceanic Citrus

Least favorite level: Blobhunt

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Woohoo, another pack down!  This one seemed to have a large number of good candidates. with a huge number of 4s and several 5s given out.  In fact, 23 of the 50 levels--nearly half--got a 4 or 5 from me.

 

Some that stood out to me:

 

#4 Buried--I didn't quite understand what was going on until I found the hint and realized what exactly had gotten buried!  A nice throwback level that requires you to use some logic plus recall the layout of the referenced level to figure out which blocks to push.  This level might not be a hit with everyone, but personally I thought it was ingenious and creative.

 

#8 Key Insight--I solved this one a while ago so I don't remember all of the details, but do recall it taking a fair amount of thinking and feeling quite good after it's done.  It's creatively laid out and not too big.  It's always nice when a "greed" level (don't take too many of a specific item) makes the "greed" portion into a puzzle itself rather than the main idea being "you were playing a greed level all along and you didn't realize it, ha ha" or "the forbidden items are just glorified walls to navigate around". 

 

#22 Dwarven Keep--Ignore Chipster's "ordinary" comment.  I thought this stood out for several reasons.  One, its room layout is highly irregular, which as the title suggests evokes the image of an old, maybe decrepit, dungeon or keep as opposed to a modern structure with symmetrical shapes.  Two, it does an unusually good job of letting you choose different paths to follow without cooking the level if you do the wrong one first.  There are several things that have to be done in sequence, but you visit things out of order, you don't cook the level, you just have to come back later to pick up everything.  Oh yeah, there is some required backtracking, but it's not tedious.  And the "treasure room" was a nice touch.  It's not overly tight but you do have to clear it at least somewhat efficiently.  And the part where you have to move the two blocks out of the way to get the green key was a creative touch, as was the small blocks/recessed wall puzzle near the vertical teleport.

 

#37 Dave's Warehouse--This was a nice sokoban that manages to hit the sweet spot between trivial and frustrating.  There are a few puzzle elements, like figuring out the correct method for extracting blocks and which buttons should be covered before which.  The blue walls (and permanently irretrievable blocks) were a nice aesthetic touch that happily did not add guesswork to the level.

 

#48 Zephyr Heights--The name reminds me of a Spyro level and the high quantity of collectibles, simple puzzles, exploration, and gliding from one area to the next make me think of classic Spyro even more.  And classic Spyro games were good, so as you might imagine I liked this level.  The alcoves where you can push a block to reveal some hidden collectibles were a sweet touch!

 

Honorable mentions:

 

#41 Block Race--This did some nice things with blocks--the Teeth puzzle was fun and the sardines puzzle was nice if nothing special.  Taking a block back through each room after you solved that room was a nice little touch.  The end "race" was a bit unnecessary I think, as it didn't fit with the theme of the level, you wouldn't know where the exit is when you started it, and you wouldn't know where the green key was unless you were paying careful attention earlier in the level.  I think the level would be even better if it dropped the "Race".

 

#46 Minigame--The rules of the game (in regards to what the red buttons do) isn't explained, and I think that's fine since it's intuitive and easy to figure out with some experimentation.  And then once I learned the rules, lining everything up was fun, too.

 

Other thoughts:

 

In #26 Diamond, I solved it using 3 keys and had only 2 moves to spare when it came to getting ahead of the fireball.  Is that optimal?  If so, that's a pretty hefty demand in the optimizing department that must be met just to solve the level at all!  Especially so when you consider the many different key counts and door combinations a player might try before finding the correct route.

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My comments and such for the some of the levels in this pack:

 

4. Buried

 

Anything I have to say about this level has already been said in Andrew's post above. This is hands down one of my top 10 levels I really want to see in the final set and not just because it's a throwback level. It's just a blast to play every single time.

 

15. Spatial Ruins

 

Being one of my levels, I won't praise or give self-promotion but I would really love to see this in the final set. Even if it does have more random force floors what people may prefer. :)

 

18. In the Pool

 

This was one of the levels I was sad to not see in CCLP1 and I hope it will redeem itself for this set. It might be an easy, non-challenging level to us veterans, especially since CCLP4 is aiming for a higher difficulty curve than CCLP1, but I can really see this as an early level in CCLP4.

 

28. Pacific Ocean

 

What even is this level and why is this in voting.

 

32. Flock of Block

 

I underestimated this level before, it's a very well designed sokoban themed level that kept the level fresh and fun and I never once felt bored replaying this one. Can easily see this somewhere in the middle of CCLP4, if it makes it in.

 

33. Quorum

 

I enjoyed playing this level and it was a lot of fun. However, it is essentially the same thing throughout the entire level and there's stronger key themed levels in voting. Not exactly one I want to see in the final set, though as a early time crunch level, this could do quite nicely.

 

47. Scenes From an Italian Restaurant

 

A fun little block pushing level that I enjoyed. Again, not a strong pick for me but knowing I enjoyed it should be nice to know. :)

 

Favorite level: Buried (4)

Least favorite level: Pacific Ocean (28)

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#14 (Lounge Act): I made it as far as 25,12 without "cheating".  At this point the only thing preventing me from solving the level normally was the water at 9,24, but I was otherwise stuck, save exploiting bugs.  So I "cheated" and used slide delay to ram a block at 24,12, then solved the rest of the level without cheating.  The rest of the level was easier than it should have been because I had a spare yellow key.  Finished with 5 popups unused (8,17, 8,18, 2,4, 19,18, and 11,24), but had to relinquish the force boots.  Busted or not, it was still a challenging and satisfying level.

Edited by pieguy
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In #26 Diamond, I solved it using 3 keys and had only 2 moves to spare when it came to getting ahead of the fireball.  Is that optimal?  If so, that's a pretty hefty demand in the optimizing department that must be met just to solve the level at all!  Especially so when you consider the many different key counts and door combinations a player might try before finding the correct route.

 

I solved this only using 2 keys, so there must be more than one "correct" route.

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Buried (#4): I love the concept of taking an existing level and mangling it in some way to create something new. That being said... I don't think this level does a very good job of it. Before realizing that it's a copy of Lesson 1, the solution takes a lot of guesswork for finding keys and chips under blocks. After realizing, there's a lot of looping around the outside finding the way in. As I tend to say: A+ concept, C- execution. I'd much rather see Ravaged (Longbow #1) as a rehashed level.

Blue Island (#9): For the size of the level, this is a pretty devious puzzle! I especially like how the difference in trap behaviors in rulesets is highlighted without being unequal.

Wisdom and Madness and Folly (#17): Oh boy, where do I begin here...this is one of those levels that crams too much cleverness in for its own good, and combines it with some semi-precise timing. The cloning/trap room is interesting enough, but there's a lot of waiting around. The tank room is much more precise than it needs to be, and it's especially annoying in Lynx trying to get the exact right tick multiple times to proceed. Then there's an unnecessary dodging room, a neat pink ball corridor that plays cheap because there's no return if you didn't toggle the walls between trips. (technically observable, but the balls bouncing on toggle buttons and lack of visibility means it's a very unfair trap) This is followed up by a small toggle maze with bugs and paramecia circling on toggle buttons (this is cool!) and using a block to guide tanks to their doom. Last is... another cloning room that's really all about waiting. It was easy to figure out, but one wrong step while figuring it out and do everything over again! Then the level ends by disrupting the monsters in the middle to make the walls toggle and reach an exit. Yay.

So overall there's some neat ideas weighed down by an excessively rigid implementation. There's no real reason why each of the 6 distinct challenges had to be tackled in the order they were: the level would be a lot stronger if you could choose your order and started in the center, but even then I don't think I'd enjoy playing it.

Push Blocks and Do Things (#19): Well, that's a boring title. There's also an inequality with the blue key (swap blue for red or yellow and it's fixed. Anyway, this is actually a pretty neat 'find the order' level with a lovely aesthetic. I definitely wouldn't mind seeing this (with a new title) early in CCLP4.

The Boot Problem (#23): Cool idea to take the "you have a boot you don't want" design trope and repeat it through the level, but ultimately it falls victim to repeating the same challenge (4x4 rooms with a glider) over and over.

Diamond (#26): I don't think you should have to optimize a level to quite this extent to be able to solve it. I'm fine with needing a decently optimized route (see Dwarven Keep's chip vault) but this takes it too far, needing not only the route but near perfect execution.

A Puzzle (#30): A tedious level. Kind of like Yet Another Puzzle and Yet Another Yet Another Puzzle, except without most of the puzzle. (of these, I think YAP hit the sweet spot and YAYAP crammed in too many block loops: though the actual puzzle in the level was excellently done)

Randomness (#35): This pack has too many "why is this in voting" levels. This, Pacific Ocean, Shuffle, and Blobhunt.

Exclusive Or (#36): I love this level. I solved it both ways for the full experience and this is easily one of my top picks for the final set. My only real complaint is that the ice slide at the end isn't entirely an ice slide, but that's such a minor nitpick.

Minigame (#46): The mechanism breaks when you push multiple buttons in quick succession and I'm not a fan of the idea to begin with, at least not in this context. Mobius made a really good puzzle in CC2 with 6 buttons and walls and I think that the concept works better there: or with a line of traps that get cloned into and then released...

 

Favorite level: Exclusive Or (#36)

Least favorite: Wisdom and Madness and Folly (#17)

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Buried (#4): I love the concept of taking an existing level and mangling it in some way to create something new. That being said... I don't think this level does a very good job of it. Before realizing that it's a copy of Lesson 1, the solution takes a lot of guesswork for finding keys and chips under blocks. After realizing, there's a lot of looping around the outside finding the way in.

 

There's a difference between guessing where things are and using logic to find where things are and I have to say this level I think uses logic over guesswork, especially if one remembers the layout of Lesson 1, which I believe is the intention of the level to start with. Even so, the layout of Lesson 1 isn't that hard to remember to begin with so one should logically figure out/find out where the chips/keys are - not all the keys are necessary to solve either!

 

Looping around finding the way in was honestly the funnest part of the whole level for me because again, that's the key part of the concept.

 

Least favorite: Wisdom and Madness and Folly (#17)

 

+1

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Thoughts on the levels: 

 

1 - Nothing special.

 

2 - Fun little ice maze, but nothing else about the level makes it stand out.

 

3 - I love levels composed of just mini-challenges, and the fact that it has no random elements makes this a strong candidate for CCLP4.

 

4 - I also love levels reminiscent of the original set, and this one reprises it in a way that is fun and new.

 

5 - This level has a familiar feel that is attractive.

 

6 - Nothing special.

 

7 - Nothing special.

 

8 - Not the TOTALLY UNFAIR partial post level we deserve, but the TOTALLY UNFAIR partial post level we need.

 

9 - Good force floor action packed in such a tight space.

 

10 - Great sokoban puzzles with a forgettable hidden wall maze/chip collecting island.

 

11 - Fun and beautiful sokoban with the classic lock wheel.

 

12 - Great recessed wall level with fun puzzles and good replay value.

 

13 - Interesting mix of key puzzles with some elements of a maze theme.

 

14 - I love this level and would love to see it in the final set, but I think it would then lose its value as a difficult custom level and the award for it would no longer be necessary.

 

15 - Flows nicely, but feels thrown together at the same time.

 

16 - Not the most challenging walker level, but it has a great design and a variety of challenges, which makes this a stronger candidate for CCLP4.

 

17 - Good design with interesting puzzles.

 

18 - Nothing special.

 

19 - Nothing special.

 

20 - Puzzling but fun to solve recessed wall puzzle.

 

21 - The better version of that other level that tried and failed to be a STEAM themed maze.

 

22 - Interesting layout, but it's mostly chip collecting with the occasional melee thrown in.

 

23 - Maybe a good introduction to the thief.

 

24 - A good candidate for a MONSTER LAB themed level in the final set.

 

25 - Nothing special.

 

26 - Fun time crunch kind of level.

 

27 - Good HUNT themed level and a nice intro to the teeth.

 

28 - Nothing special.

 

29 - Interesting pathfinder level with a great theme.

 

30 - Fun, if tedious, long sokoban, but beautiful design.

 

31 - Great compilation of simple challenges that would make a nice breather level.

 

32 - Not too difficult, but fun enough to keep you interested and replaying.

 

33 - Nothing special.

 

34 - Nothing special.

 

35 - Good intro to random elements.

 

36 - One of the best levels with this concept.

 

37 - I've enjoyed playing this every time I played it. I wouldn't mind seeing it in the final set.

 

38 - Fun little ice dodging challenges.

 

39 - Short yet fun little fire puzzle with a compact feel likely because of the long corridors.

 

40 - Not my favorite of the many toggle wall mazes.

 

41 - Great time crunch sokoban.

 

42 - Good concept, but this level just doesn't make it for me.

 

43 - Amazing blue wall maze themed level with some fun puzzles mixed in.

 

44 - Nothing special at first, but then it starts to get interesting.

 

45 - Great concept for a maze level.

 

46 - Fun little mini level that I could see as a breather level.

 

47 - A level I designed for a create competition. I could see it as one of the early levels, maybe with a name change and a new hint (though not absolutely necessary).

 

48 - One of the more interesting chip collecting levels with a great design.

 

49 - Nothing special.

 

50 - Nothing special.

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