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Kangaroo Pack - Discussion

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This is the official discussion thread for CCLP4 voting's Kangaroo Pack. Feel free to share your thoughts, opinions, and comments on the levels here!

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1: Unusual concept, but nothing special.

 

2: Nice blank entries in the monster list. Either way, it's fun.

 

3: It's a fun level, but it failed to make a strong impression on me.

 

4: I think this was in JCCLP. It's all right, even if it is rather easy.

 

5: Two JCCLP levels in a row seriously? This one is all right too.

 

6: This is a J.B. level? I really don't know what to say...

 

7: A really hard level with a boring title.

 

8: The last room is a real pain. What a shame, the first part was decent...

 

9: Unusual concept.

 

10: Really simple dodging level.

 

11: Too large, I think.

 

12: I think this was from the Walls of CC1 contest. I found this level painful back then. Today, while it is not painful, I still don't like it.

 

13: Such a small level, yet so hard.

 

14: One of Jeffrey's best levels ever.

 

15: OOH you're trapped and the rescue equipment is far away! We will leave you alone with the positive one and the pointless one while we get our stuff. Will you have the strength to survive until we get back?

 

16: Creative level.

 

17: Not really much of a challenge. I suppose it was meant to be harder.

 

18: Better than I expected.

 

19: When I started this level, I felt like "Oh no, not another cave level!" but in the end it turns out very well.

 

20: This level contains a hint saying "All blue walls are real" but doesn't contain any hint tiles or blue walls. This is better than Warehouse II.

 

21: Easiest level so far in the pack. To the point where the hint is repeated to remind people "hey don't pick up those green keys". Meh.

 

22: I don't know. It doesn't have anything bad about it, but nothing really special either.

 

23: It would be great if I managed to solve the sokoban...

 

24: Morality doesn't come from morons, but "moricity" does. The level is fun.

 

25: Better than many other force floor mazes.

 

26: I think this was a Create Competition entry that was later reused for a Time Trial and repackaged in UC4. Such an overused level.

 

27: This could have been more frustrating.

 

28: That's a good concept, not too frustrating.

 

29: Why is this in voting?

 

30: One of the better teleport levels.

 

31: No challenge.

 

32: I am not a fan of levels that aim to use every tile of a certain colour, as using a separate tileset ruins everything. Thieves are red in Lynx, not blue.

 

33: Ordinary dodging level.

 

34: I think this was in UC4. It's nice.

 

35: I have still not solved this since my last JCCLP2 review.

 

36: GLIDERS ARE NOT GHOSTS!!! The rest of the title is also depressing. This is a good dodging level with predictable patterns.

 

37: Guess what? Ordinary!

 

38: "It's probably not possible" YOU MEAN YOU DON'T KNOW??? Either way, I think this would have been better shorter. The last room is especially frustrating.

 

39: One of the best levels in voting so far.

 

40: Weird.

 

41: Interesting way to progress through the level.

 

42: One of Josh's best levels ever.

 

43: The puzzle is too simple.

 

44: Really great puzzle.

 

45: Well...this is just a simple itemswapper, not puzzles, the dodging isn't really a problem. Too simple...

 

46: Overall this is a good blue wall maze. The teleport cook in Lynx is quite dumb, though...

 

47: Good concept.

 

48: Ordinary.

 

49: This one was for the January 2014 Create Competition. While I finished in last place, this one came very close, and I can see why: it's really not newbie friendly. But it's still fun.

 

50: I think this is in JCCLP2. Good itemswapper.

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33: Ordinary dodging level.

Did you actually solve this level?

Edited by random 8

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26: I think this was a Create Competition entry that was later reused for a Time Trial and repackaged in UC4. Such an overused level.

Walls of CCLP2 -> put in UC5 as a level I made -> also appears early on in my best of set. I'm not really sure how that's overused, or how that would count against the level.

 

32: I am not a fan of levels that aim to use every tile of a certain colour, as using a separate tileset ruins everything. Thieves are red in Lynx, not blue.

And yet, this didn't count against Photopia... separate tilesets also don't change how the level plays so again: why does color theming count against a level? If there were no thieves, would that change things?

 

4: I think this was in JCCLP. It's all right, even if it is rather easy.

5: Two JCCLP levels in a row seriously? This one is all right too.

 

8: The last room is a real pain. What a shame, the first part was decent...

9: Unusual concept.

 

Random chance puts two levels from a 149 level set next to each other: complain!

Random chance puts two levels from a 100 level set next to each other: no comment!

 

38: "It's probably not possible" YOU MEAN YOU DON'T KNOW??? Either way, I think this would have been better shorter. The last room is especially frustrating.

Well, it doesn't need to be known to be possible to get every chip given how many extras there are. I think it's quite reasonable in that regard.
  • Upvote 4

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Walls of CCLP2 -> put in UC5 as a level I made -> also appears early on in my best of set. I'm not really sure how that's overused, or how that would count against the level.

 

Sorry about the mistake. In that case, it probably wasn't overused (Y)

 

And yet, this didn't count against Photopia... separate tilesets also don't change how the level plays so again: why does color theming count against a level? If there were no thieves, would that change things?

 

I don't see how Photopia tries to use any special aesthetics. To answer your question, I don't think replacing the thieves would improve the level because any other tile would also break the aesthetic.

 

Random chance puts two levels from a 149 level set next to each other: complain!

Random chance puts two levels from a 100 level set next to each other: no comment!

 

Perhaps it's because I didn't play the set levels 8 and 9 come from, so I have no way of knowing that they are both from the same set? :facepalm:

 

 

Well, it doesn't need to be known to be possible to get every chip given how many extras there are. I think it's quite reasonable in that regard.

 

Still, mentioning something like this makes the level look unprofessional, as if the designer was too lazy to thoroughly test it to see if all the chips are required. While such knowledge is not really necessary, putting this imprecise information in the hint is not a good idea, in my opinion.

 

> No other level like it.

> Is called ordinary anyway.

(clap)

 

There are two parts: a blue wall/water maze, and a connect-the-chips section with recessed walls. Both concepts have been done many times already. The only unique things about this level are throwing the two puzzles together, and the happy faces in the top corners.

 

Also, my musical tastes are very different from yours, Josh.  Sorry <3

 

Then why didn't you mention the recessed wall maze? Is Recess from CCLP3 just glider dodging?

 

I did not find the recessed wall maze hard at all.  The dodging was much harder, I think.

 

Recess is mostly the maze, although neither maze nor dodging are hard to execute.

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The way the hint is worded, it seems like it's challenging the player to try to collect all available chips instead of telling the player that the designer didn't test the level.

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6: This is a J.B. level? I really don't know what to say...

 

I really don't know either.

  • Upvote 3

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The way the hint is worded, it seems like it's challenging the player to try to collect all available chips instead of telling the player that the designer didn't test the level.

That's an interesting way of putting it (Y)

 

I really don't know either.

It IS your level, right?  It's fun...

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It IS your level, right?  It's fun...

 

Yes it is J.B.'s level. One of his best levels actually.

 

I don't see how Photopia tries to use any special aesthetics.

 

Photopia has sections that only use tiles of one color palette - the ice section uses all blue colored tiles, the starting room uses red, etc. So logically speaking, your complaint with Aquamarine Isles should also apply to Photopia. Otherwise, your complaint on the former doesn't make sense.

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Photopia has sections that only use tiles of one color palette - the ice section uses all blue colored tiles, the starting room uses red, etc. So logically speaking, your complaint with Aquamarine Isles should also apply to Photopia. Otherwise, your complaint on the former doesn't make sense.

 

It's true in the blue room in MSCC. But the starting room, not so much (I always saw fire as more yellow than red) and the teleport, while its colour is varies, is never yellow except sometimes in CC2. Also the room with the paramecia does not use any specific colour scheme. In the end, it's much less noticeable for this level.

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My family's in town, so I've had limited evaluating time for the voting packs, but I was able to finish this one last night. A couple of 5s, a whole lot of average or below-average levels, but overall, still a fairly fun pack to go through. I'm going to start doing Jeffrey's "best / worst" crowning at the end (and have done ahead and edited previous posts to name such levels for the other packs).

 

#2 (BactLab): This level has the open, semi-carefree Dave Borgman-esque design style characteristic of CCLP2, but it's far too chaotic to feel anything other than frustrating. Open melee levels can be fun when the player feels like they've got some degree of control over the chaos, but this is quite the opposite.

 

#6 (Skydiver's Maze): This is one of the few levels I designed that I'm really hoping will make the CCLP4 cut. It was constructed shortly after the CCLP3 submission period had ended and was a tad too difficult for CCLP1, but I think it would fit right into this set. I'm a sucker for puzzles that allow you to see the entire level and plan your moves out before making them, which was what I hoped this would accomplish.

 

#7 (Restrictions): As I mentioned in some of the previous pack commentaries, I'm not particularly fond of a level where you basically have to do the exact same thing multiple times just so the level can extend its length or be symmetrical. This level is based on a really neat idea - don't operate outside the invisible fence for each room keeping the teeth in line - and then it just adds in a bunch of button switching, item swapping, and block pushing that doesn't really need to be there. It eventually got to the point where I was wondering when it was going to be over, which is dangerous ground for a level to tread.

 

#11 (Bisection): My only real complaint about this level is the strictness of getting to the suction boots. The open nature of the rest of it is so much fun and provided quite a few "wait, that'll actually work?!" relief moments that are a testament to the quality of the design.

 

#13 (Pushover): This level is short enough that the "gotcha!" moments don't feel terribly painful to reach on a subsequent attempt. They're also quite clever in subverting some of the typical expectations for symmetrical levels with extra chips, particularly with respect to what chips ought to be left behind and how blocks on one side differ in use from those on the other. Overall, I really enjoyed this and wouldn't mind seeing it in the final set.

 

#14 (Unravel): I've said my peace about levels with hidden complex mechanisms and ultra-rigid paths to walk in CCLPs. This level is ultimately more clever than, say, The Genie Lamp, but it still falls into that category for me.

 

#16 (Erode): As a kind of converse statement to my comments above on #7, I love levels that feature some sort of symmetry but require the player to think differently or do something slightly different in each section. This level is one of those and was a lot of fun to figure out.

 

#20 (Control Machine): The obvious comparison here is Warehouse II. It seems like this level was built to provide some of the same challenge (and at least for me, it was quite challenging) as its CCLP2 counterpart but without the unnecessary tedium. That being said, I still thought the path many of the blocks had to take through the southeast area was a bit long with quite a few loops. But even more importantly than that, I'm not particularly excited to see another plain sokoban level in a CCLP, especially since we have so many other, more inventive block-pushing puzzles in the voting pool. This is well-designed, though, and I'd be curious to find out if it was an original composition.

 

#28 (Victorious Comeback): This is one of those "do the same thing four times" types of levels I was alluding to earlier, but it at least has a neat opening sequence that's pretty unique.

 

#34 (Charcoal Cove): I think this could've been a stronger candidate if it had a bit more going on in each room than the rather mostly generic stuff that's there. That being said, I absolutely loved the aesthetic, the use of the glider, and the location of the secret hint, all of which raised the rating for me a bit. Pretty much all of these comments apply to levels 38 and 39 in this pack as well.

 

#35 (Everything That Drowns Me): I really enjoyed this. The designer claims this was inspired by Metal Harbor, and the influence is certainly visible. But unlike some levels that drew inspiration from other official levels, this one manages to take the general concept and run with it in a fresh direction. The design is also beautiful, and a few of the little challenges were neat to crack.

 

#42 (Scandinavia): I was a bit dismissive of this level when I played it in the set it originally came from, but on subsequent plays, I've come to enjoy it more and more. It feels like a spiritual successor of sorts to CCLP1's California, but it also contains a few neat references to previous official levels that don't come across as overdone.

 

#44 (Photopia): My absolute favorite level in this pack. There are quite a handful of excellent color-themed levels, and this one is no exception. I agree with all of the previous comments on this - and I especially appreciate how subsequent visits to each room feel quite a bit different. Overall, this is a level I would love to see in the final set.

 

Favorite level: Photopia

Least favorite level: BactLab

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I love skipping across different voting packs to leave feedback on :) here's some of mine from this pack.

 

3. Countryside

 

I haven't seen a level like this before. The way this level is crafted is very well done and the fact that the two halves of the level are completely different from each other makes it a very strong candidate from me. My only nitpick with this level, however, is the appearing walls in the water section but considering you can easily go around and make them visible before moving the block any further, it's only a small nitpick.

 

12. Seven Layer Salad

 

Here we have another "guide one block around" level that I have to say pulls it off in an amazing way that doesn't feel tedious at all, which is what Have Block, Will Travel (Ravioli #22) fell under sadly. Each room was well constructed and makes you use the single block in a different way, keeping the level fresh and I greatly appreciate that. In the end, I would love to see this in CCLP4.

 

17. Deep Dive

 

The designer of this level states to have made this in around four or so minutes but it's a pretty cool level that just works. I wouldn't mind seeing this in CCLP4, though there are far better teeth levels in the voting that I favor more.

 

27. Light the Way

 

Admittedly, I am being a little picky with levels that contain mostly invisible walls but I liked this one. It does fall under the tedious category but only barely and being untimed was a good call. I can see this being in the final set.

 

29. Jumping

 

Really? This was just disappointing to play and to see in the voting. It's not interesting one bit.

 

36. Ghosts on Detaching Retinas

 

There's a good selection of glider themed levels in the voting and I think what makes this level stronger than other glider levels like this is each room contains a different pattern, which keeps the level interesting and ultimately fun to play.

 

40. Playing with Fire

 

I like the feel of this level and I'm sure it has a bunch of solutions but I don't think CCLP4 needs levels like this since it seems to be more optimization oriented. That being said, the level is still fun to play and explore new ways to reach the exit in a quick amount of time.

 

49. Newbie Zone

 

I love the aesthetics of this level a lot and the fact there's no real concept to it other than collecting chips and there's nothing wrong with that! I think CCLP4 should have a level or two that just focus on this sort of thing. This is a level that might not be well received for one reason or another but for me personally, I would like to see this in the final set.

 

Favorite level: Burning Question (24) / Charcoal Cove (34)

Least favorite level: Ratchet (15)

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Restrictions (#7): I discussed potential speed tricks on this level with Shane, and discovered that it's possible to switch 'stations' without dropping the teeth a row. That actually cuts down on tedium here and allows for some creative re-ordering, but ultimately the level falls victim to being a figure out the order level that limits exploration.

Seven Layer Salad (#12): This is one of those levels I really should like more than I do. There's a lot of clever little interactions here, but when I first played it I gave it a resounding "meh". Having optimized NSG now, I gained some appreciation for this level (and lost some for Boldercrap) but I still don't really have strong feelings one way or the other on its final inclusion. (Don't make me re-execute my 369 route please... :P)

Unravel (#14):

#14 (Unravel): I've said my peace about levels with hidden complex mechanisms and ultra-rigid paths to walk in CCLPs. This level is ultimately more clever than, say, The Genie Lamp, but it still falls into that category for me.

As the designer, I can sort of see the comparison to The Genie Lamp here. After all, both levels are controlled by teeth outside of the players view. However, The Genie Lamp requires the player to deduce what the mechanism is, while Unravel doesn't care. The level practically solves itself! That being said, I can see the complaint about the rigidity of the path, but I'd still be heavily in favor of this level just because I still don't think I've seen anything else quite like it. Unravel might not have much replay value, but neither did Frozen in Time.

Ratchet (#15): This feels more rigid than Unravel while trying to pretend it's not.

The Illuminati (#23): Now that's a clever subversion.

Light the Way (#27): CCLP4 will need an invisible wall themed level, probably at least one. If we're going with an invisible wall maze, this has my vote- it feels like an iteration of the Vanishing Act concept without ripping it off, and it's surprisingly difficult to do that for pretty much any concept!

Rejected (#30): Though I may not like the random force floors much here, I do enjoy these small challenges mixed in with a clever partial posting mechanism. The Incredible Flaming Teleporting Butler was probably slightly inspired by this, looking back.

Conjuction Conniption (#33): So we have a recessed wall navigation challenge where you can't see the entire structure for the imperfections that make it possible, and some annoying dodging. Not a fan of this combination. (also, it's spelled conjuNction)

Photopia (#44): I just solved this the intended way, as opposed to using the 'bridge through the water' bust. It's okay I guess- there's not really anything terribly interesting here for me.

 

Favorite level: Bisection (#11)

Least favorite: Conjuction Conniption (#33)

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#20 (Control Machine): The obvious comparison here is Warehouse II. It seems like this level was built to provide some of the same challenge (and at least for me, it was quite challenging) as its CCLP2 counterpart but without the unnecessary tedium. That being said, I still thought the path many of the blocks had to take through the southeast area was a bit long with quite a few loops. But even more importantly than that, I'm not particularly excited to see another plain sokoban level in a CCLP, especially since we have so many other, more inventive block-pushing puzzles in the voting pool. This is well-designed, though, and I'd be curious to find out if it was an original composition.

 

It is an original composition, and I did have Warehouse II in mind when designing it. Warehouse II is one of my favorite CCLP2 levels and I wanted to make something similar to it.

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