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Longbow Pack - Discussion

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This is the official discussion thread for CCLP4 voting's Longbow Pack. Feel free to share your thoughts, opinions, and comments on the levels here!

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#1 (Ravaged): This was a rather unusual level and felt quite creepy to play (in Lynx; it doesn't quite have the same feel in MS...).  It kind of has guesswork but of an intelligent sort, with some "Oh please let there be / There had better be a blue key under this block ... Yesss!!" moments.  And despite that it can probably be solved on the first attempt.  Quite a unique level, and for that I give it a 5.  There have, perhaps, been similarly structured levels - but I think what works for this one is the consistent theme - it's not just plain walls and doors, but not chock full with too many different elements like bombs, ice, force floors, teeth, etc. either.  The hint tile not being accessible on its 3rd appearance was a nice touch.

 

- Madhav.

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#26 (Remains) seems to be busted. Once you have the yellow key, you can open the yellow door, step on the trap, wait for the fireball to hit the brown button, then grab the fire boot and walk right over to the exit.

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#1 (Ravaged): I totally agree with every one of Madhav's comments about this level. Top-notch design that perfects the concept to which we were introduced way back in Rock-Alpha's Torn Down in Flames. The gravel and "encased" monsters make the environment so spooky that you forget you're playing a mod of CCLP1's Sapphire Cavern. Excellent all around.

 

#4 (Cross-Stitch): A bunch of varied, interesting challenges threaded together by a compelling design element + revisiting of rooms with new objectives = a winner in my book.

 

#7 (36 Cell): I think this level's (and this pack's #16's) cousin in CCLP1 did this kind of level layout justice already. It's not that these levels aren't fun, but they don't bring much new to the table, and I think CCLP4 could use more original content.

 

#13 (Cavern of Remembrance): It's always nice to see levels that contain completely pointless sections throwing you off the track without cooking your goose. What really makes this work is the amount of restraint here: this level doesn't dabble in ridiculous amounts of misdirection, like tossing in invisible walls to challenge your notions about what the maze layout is. Instead, by refining the gameplay that worked in Brickwalled / Brickwalled Again, it encourages you to test out blue walls while giving you plenty of free room in which to walk around. It works well when you've cleared out an area and note that you don't need to visit some enclosed space that doesn't have any chips. The block-pushing also feels non-threatening while keeping you on your toes. Overall, a very strong candidate in my book.

 

#14 (Invisible Fence): I can see some people finding any level with invisible walls annoying, but this one I found fun for a lot of reasons. First, the concept is plainly defined at the start and slowly built up across several sections while making the layout non-linear enough that you can visit certain sections first if you'd like if you find something that difficult. Second, the concept is plain wonderful. It encourages careful study of the map while not foisting anything that unexpected on you. It's just neat seeing levels that make invisible wall interaction something systematic (like CC1's STRIPES?).

 

#20 (Estranged for a Season): This level is a slow burn, beginning with a generic room and a few generic-looking tasks before gradually revealing its true nature: you have to visit rooms without doing everything in them and then return later with the proper conditions in place or items in hand to do everything else. It's a cleverly designed map with only a few hiccups.

 

#31 (Bodyguards): This is a neat concept and a brilliant implementation that keeps waffling between near-absolute freedom to explore and restriction that contains your movements to floor tiles and gravel. The variety of monsters is neat as well while not making dodging a heavy focus of the gameplay. I'd love to see this in CCLP4 - maybe with a follow-up with both thief types in CC2?

 

#33 (Shuffling): Not gonna lie - I was stuck on this level for almost two hours, until I realized that I missed a block I could've been using all along. The solution is certainly clever, but it felt like the designer made everything to be as restrictive as possible.

 

#35 (24 Queens): I feel like this concept would've been more interesting had the player been challenged to place the blocks in such a way that the correct positions weren't obvious (perhaps block monsters on both axes from crossing the area where the blocks could go, like JL1's Slip and Slide?). Right now, it's an extremely easy sokoban that feels like an excuse to show off an arrangement that prevents chess queens from not attacking each other instead of offering compelling gameplay.

 

#43 (Toggle Task): Between this and the excellent Non-Dimensional Layer (in a later pack), there shouldn't be any shortage of excellent toggle wall levels in CCLP4. I love how this level really twists the "Reversi" concept to make a rather confusing (though not for systematic explorers) maze in the bottom half with different sections accessed from different places. The top half is a welcome break from all the maze running and adds some neat variety.

 

#44 (Restrictive Argyle): I'm normally not big on guesswork, but I can get behind it if the level is short enough, and there is some room for some logical deduction. CCLP4 needs some levels like this, and this one is unique enough that it gets an enthusiastic vote from me. It's also one of my favorite teleport-centric levels in the voting pool.

 

#46 (Ocean Currents): I've mentioned before how having too many types of difficulty can ruin the playing experience. This level, unfortunately, falls into that category for me, with both puzzle elements and dexterity involved - the latter of which is very frustrating as is.

 

#48 (Repair the Automatic (Caution) Doors): Unlike 64 Cell, Build-a-Bridge Workshop 2.0, and Repair the Maze 2.0, I feel like this follow-up did an excellent job on recognizing what made its predecessor work while building on the concept in a way that made it even more fun and unique. This level gives you a lot of puzzles that feel like the original but manage to be original in and of themselves. The new addition of the toggling extension provides an extra layer of complexity that doesn't feel overwhelming but presents a neat challenge. Overall, a really fun jaunt that hit a lot of the right notes for me.

 

#49 (Cluster Two): I hadn't solved or even attempted this level before voting, but it was a blast to figure out. In some ways, it felt like a spiritual successor to Overlap - where you had to figure out where each tool needed to be used. Here, it's a bit less obtuse, but there are more tasks to keep track of, which was a bit of a brain burn after a few attempts. Still, the entire level was incredibly well-designed, and I wouldn't mind seeing it in the final set.

 

Favorite level: Ravaged

Least favorite level: Ocean Currents

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Favorite level: Ravaged

Least favorite level: Ocean Currents

Huh, I'll take this as a win anyway :P Ocean Currents isn't that good but it is at least original. (Y)

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I finally finished another pack.

 

1: It's a very fun level.

 

2: There are many levels where you have to guide the teeth throughout the level, but very few where you have to build the path. I like this.

 

3: It's a creative partial posting level. The time limit is rather short, though.

 

4: The first room is adapted from Chuck's Challenge, couldn't this cause copyright problems?

 

5: One of Josh' earlier levels. It's a good teeth dodging level, not too easy but not too hard.

 

6: Harder than I expected. I rather like it.

 

7: 49 Cell is the best of all the "cell" levels. This one is fun, but I don't see it in the final set.

 

8: Great blob level. Not too easy but not too painful.

 

9: It's another fun level.

 

10: This level is not a challenge, and I don't like the title.

 

11: Not as painful as most walker levels.

 

12: This was in UC3 or UC4. It is better than I remembered it to be.

 

13: Putting blocks in a blue wall maze works surprisingly well.

 

14: At least they are not invisible walls.

 

15: At the start it is too slow. In the end it is too fast.

 

16: Interesting how both 36 and 64 are in the same pack. I still think 49 Cell is the best.

 

17: Some are tougher than others. But nearly all are painful.

 

18: Much harder than it looked at first. I had to use block slapping to solve it. I don't know how it would work in MS (but I don't really care).

 

19: Another level with a CC2 title. But while the CC2 level was terrible except for the bust, this one is fun.

 

20: I haven't been able to figure out how to get the green key so far...

 

21: This is a really fun level, but the hint is too long for MSCC unfortunately.

 

22: I played this in CCLP1 voting. Very hard, but very fun.

 

23: This concept has been done many times, probably, but I still find this fun.

 

24: It's fun, somewhat.

 

25: A bit short, but I like it.

 

26: I originally would have given this a poor rating because of the extremely precise timing required to free the monster, but then I remembered the bust Jeffrey found, and it is much more fun than the intended solution.

 

27: This level is busted: using the upper room is not required.

 

28: The only real challenge is the time limit, and it's really not a problem.

 

29: The concept is clever, better than other false exit levels. But it's so short...

 

30: This level is harder in Lynx because all teeths move, including those not in the MS monster order.

 

31: At first I thought this would be a painful dodging level, but since you're carrying keys half the time, you can step on the thieves without cooking the level.

 

32: BUSTED: recessed walls at [21,22] and [22,22] not required. This was one of my favourite levels in CCLP1 voting despite the fact I hadn't solved it. Now I have, and I still like it.

 

33: One of the hardest levels in this pack.

 

34: It's a fun level that makes you think twice before picking up a boot.

 

35: The sokobans are disappointingly easy.

 

36: Please. Just an extra ten seconds. Just a minute.

 

37: You have to memorize the teeth patterns? That's evil.

 

38: Several rooms feel like they came out of a random tile generator.

 

39: This blue wall maze has patterns and works well.

 

40: I expected something painful, but in the end it's perhaps the best walker level in voting so far.

 

41: At first I thought this would be a simple boring level where you basically have to choose the right slide and can always see where you're going. And then I realized you have to carry blocks all across the level and there are no extra blocks. That's really annoying.

 

42: Why does Chip start on a floor tile, it's ugly. Anyway, I've seen better toggle mazes...

 

43: ...such as this one. It may not be a pure toggle maze, but the block section fits very well.

 

44: Surprisingly easy.

 

45: Fun level, but slightly repetitive and with a short time limit.

 

46: I played this in JCCLP, and it was one of my least favourite levels of the set.

 

47: This level has a minor bust: it is possible to use a glider and a block as a nail to access the red key, instead of two blocks. The whole toggle wall mechanism is pointless too. Other than that, it's a great level.

 

48: It's hard to improve on the original Automatic (Caution) Doors. This one is better than most sequels, but the original remains better.

 

49: I don't have the patience for levels like this.

 

50: A really good level.

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4: The first room is adapted from Chuck's Challenge, couldn't this cause copyright problems?

12: This was in UC3 or UC4. It is better than I remembered it to be.

19: Another level with a CC2 title. But while the CC2 level was terrible except for the bust, this one is fun.

47: This level has a minor bust: it is possible to use a glider and a block as a nail to access the red key, instead of two blocks. The whole toggle wall mechanism is pointless too. Other than that, it's a great level.

4. Not really. Buried (in another pack) took Lesson 1 as a base. I think Rock has Torn Down in Flames (burned version of Nuts and Bolts) in a pack later as well, but I may be mistaken. Many other levels adapted sokobans from various other sources, including Oracle and Oracle II in CCLP2, which are both exact copies with no gameplay changes or additional content to the level of levels from Jewels of the Oracle. If those got through, one small room won't be an issue, like in Everybody Get Dangerous.

12. This was designed by Eddy, not me.

19. Designed before CC2 was released. Really, level names matching another level somewhere doesn't matter. If the level does well with a duplicate name it'd be renamed for CCLP4, like "Fire Flies" was to "Fire Bugs" and "Fire Trap" to "Fire and Water" for CCLP2. Also, the CC2 level is named Bombs Quad instead of Bomb Squad, so that's not even accurate!

47. Kind of surprised that didn't get the "BUSTED:" treatment... the toggle walls allow the player to get the gliders out of the way while moving blocks and nailing, and also reverse the rotation direction at the end, preventing a possible cook.

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I think Rock has Torn Down in Flames (burned version of Nuts and Bolts) in a pack later as well, but I may be mistaken.

 

You're mistaken, that level isn't in voting. :)

 

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4. Not really. Buried (in another pack) took Lesson 1 as a base. I think Rock has Torn Down in Flames (burned version of Nuts and Bolts) in a pack later as well, but I may be mistaken. Many other levels adapted sokobans from various other sources, including Oracle and Oracle II in CCLP2, which are both exact copies with no gameplay changes or additional content to the level of levels from Jewels of the Oracle. If those got through, one small room won't be an issue, like in Everybody Get Dangerous.

12. This was designed by Eddy, not me.

19. Designed before CC2 was released. Really, level names matching another level somewhere doesn't matter. If the level does well with a duplicate name it'd be renamed for CCLP4, like "Fire Flies" was to "Fire Bugs" and "Fire Trap" to "Fire and Water" for CCLP2. Also, the CC2 level is named Bombs Quad instead of Bomb Squad, so that's not even accurate!

47. Kind of surprised that didn't get the "BUSTED:" treatment... the toggle walls allow the player to get the gliders out of the way while moving blocks and nailing, and also reverse the rotation direction at the end, preventing a possible cook.

 

4: All right. I didn't know about Everybody Get Dangerous.

 

12: Sorry for this mistake.

 

19: I know it was made before CC2 was released, I'm just pointing it out so that it gets renamed if it gets in the final set.

 

47: I'm not sure what cook you're talking about. You do have a point about getting the gliders out of the way using the toggle walls, but the gliders don't really pose a significant threat and can be used in the nail.

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47: I'm not sure what cook you're talking about.

My guess is, if you use both blocks on the bombs and the gliders are still moving counterclockwise, you have no way of sending a glider into the last bomb without the toggle walls. That wouldn't matter, though, because the level would be cooked anyway.

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1. Ravaged

 

Not much to say but as the designer of this, I'm really surprised and happy with how many people actually like this level! I honestly thought I overdid it with the design of it but I'm glad everyone has enjoyed this level. Thanks for all the compliments! :)

 

6. Hurricane Melinda

 

My only complaint with this level was the rigidity of getting enough blocks to reach the other pair of flippers in the lower left. Everything else though is pretty solid, especially the path to reach the initial flippers to start you off. Definitely a level I wouldn't mind seeing in CCLP4.

 

15. The Pace Quickens

 

Cool concept that hasn't exactly been done before but I think using it for the whole map didn't do it justice. Had it been scaled down and maybe with less gliders, I would have rated it higher.

 

20. Estranged for a Season

 

This level completely threw me off for the longest time and for that reason I never really liked it initially. However, after finally figuring out the trick to solve this level, it easily became a level I would love to see in CCLP4. Really well designed and clever all around.

 

24. Turning Stones

 

CCLP1 had more than enough levels like this and I'm not exactly in favor of CCLP4 having these types of levels... but if it must, this would probably do. Despite that, I didn't rate this one too high.

 

33. Shuffling

 

If I had to pick one level I absolutely wanted in CCLP4 this would be it. This has to be my favorite level not only in this pack but in the entire voting pool and that is no exaggeration. It's a well designed level that revolves around a series of block puzzles but the catch is they all come together to unravel the solution, which is hands down brilliant. While the level is not exactly simple, the solution itself is so clever and figuring it out was such a joy, I went back to play it again. I can't say that about a lot of levels of this difficulty! Kudos to the designer for making this such an epic level. My only complaint is the time limit but that can always be adjusted later on. I will be so upset if this isn't in the final set.

 

35. 24 Queens

 

I think the fact the sokobans were so easy is actually a good thing, since that did play with my expectations. I was expecting the sokobans to be a lot harder but I enjoyed that they were easy.

 

39. Poly-Gone

 

I can easily see this as an early blue wall level for CCLP4, it's well designed and very fun to play. :)

 

43. Toggle Task

 

Personally, I think CCLPs are due for a level like this and for that reason, I gave this level a high rating. But this level is still a lot of fun to play and the block pushing segment believe it or not, is a nice relief from all the toggle mazes. Level like this are in my opinion, hard to design so to the designer of this one: nice work. (Y)

 

Favorite level: Shuffling (33)

Least favorite level: Patterns (17)

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I better post my notes so far on this one awhile in case I never actually get to finish a single voting pack before CCLP4  :P

 

#1 (Ravaged) - Interesting concept. I liked how even though it was sometimes overwhelming planning which way to go, if I took my time and looked carefully I could determine which way to go. Actually after a few initial attempts at getting out of the first section, beyond that I was able to solve it in one go.
 
#4 (Cross-Stitch) - One of my favorites of the set...one of the only things I'm not sure about is pushing that block up at 18,5 onto the clone block, and having only 0.2 seconds to move up one square. I can see how it would probably be obvious since you can see the clone button, but still I wonder if such a setup should be this late in the level.
 
#11 (Sinking Swarm) - This level might be disliked for obvious reasons, but hey, even CC1 had the original Jumping Swarm. I think it's an interesting enough twist, and there's only 3 blocks to push. I think I solved it on the first attempt if I remember correctly.
 
#19 (Bomb Squad) - Great twist on the ice maze concept.
 
#20 (Estranged for a Season) - Great level - since I played without looking in the editor, I was racking my brain for a while figuring out how to get both the red and green key...
 
#21 (Shimmer Glimmer) - Good level, although unfortunately a total guessing game if you tried playing it like I did, trying not to look in the editor and using MSCC, which cut the hint off. I had to look up the hint in the editor to make sure I didn't mess up which traps went to which key.

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#21 (Shimmer Glimmer) - Good level, although unfortunately a total guessing game if you tried playing it like I did, trying not to look in the editor and using MSCC, which cut the hint off. I had to look up the hint in the editor to make sure I didn't mess up which traps went to which key.

 

As the designer of this, I apologize for that. However, I don't think it should voted on based on that mishap as I myself did not have access to MSCC at the time to know the hint was too long, so it's technically no fault of either designer or player. (I didn't think there were still people that use MSCC, besides James).

 

I will try to shorten the hint as best as I can, if the level is considered for the final product.

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As the designer of this, I apologize for that. However, I don't think it should voted on based on that mishap as I myself did not have access to MSCC at the time to know the hint was too long, so it's technically no fault of either designer or player. (I didn't think there were still people that use MSCC, besides James).

 

I will try to shorten the hint as best as I can, if the level is considered for the final product.

 

Yeah no problem, I didn't consider that in my vote...and I know it can probably be counted on one hand those of us still playing in MSCC.  Just thought I would mention it in case anyone cared  :)

 

#27 (Helper) seems busted - I'm not quite sure what the intended route is here, but I didn't need to do anything with the north fireball, and I only had to go through one column in each of the tank sections...

 

#32 (Blockorama) - Great level, but is it solvable in Lynx?  It seems you have to slide to the trap at 1,24 to let the teeth hit the other button so you can get the key, but in Lynx you'll slide over it and get stuck behind the red door...

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Helper seems to require the upper room in Lynx but not MS, due to being able to slip through the trap after redirecting the left fireball.

 

Blockorama is solvable in Lynx- the trick to the section you described is to move the new block off the trap button, push the starting block onto the trap and use that to bounce off of.

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Blockorama is solvable in Lynx- the trick to the section you described is to move the new block off the trap button, push the starting block onto the trap and use that to bounce off of.

 

Ah I see...didn't think of that.  Great trick, now I wish that was the intended solution for MS too...

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Ah I see...didn't think of that.  Great trick, now I wish that was the intended solution for MS too...

 

That is the intended way to do it in MS, I just hadn't noticed the bust  :D

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#37 (The Irregular Guard) - I know this should be "fair" since you get to see the teeth/tank button pattern in the beginning, but I didn't totally remember it once it was out of sight, so it still felt like luck by the second tank section...

 

#41 (Missing Level) - Even though the Joyride concept has kind of become unpopular since the "original", I like the added twist of having to find the unobstructed paths to push the blocks through.

 

#45 (Lather, Rinse, Repeat) - A fun, much more simple take on the "triple maze" concept.

 

#46 (Ocean Currents) - At first I wasn't so fond of this level, but after I got the solution worked out, then solved it...then had to solve it again due to a permissions error of some sort where my INI file wasn't updated...it actually grew on me and became one of my favorites of the set.

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#37 (The Irregular Guard) - I know this should be "fair" since you get to see the teeth/tank button pattern in the beginning, but I didn't totally remember it once it was out of sight, so it still felt like luck by the second tank section...

 

I don't think he made that visible for you to memorize, but simply to tell you what causes the tanks to turn (as opposed to randomness, a set button pattern like in Reverse Alley, etc.). I certainly didn't bother to memorize the pattern and i got through it just fine.

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#37 (The Irregular Guard) - I know this should be "fair" since you get to see the teeth/tank button pattern in the beginning, but I didn't totally remember it once it was out of sight, so it still felt like luck by the second tank section...

There is a strategy to getting past the tanks without dying, but it's not memorization. Still, this level is not one of my favorites to say the least.

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Finished this set today...well at least I actually got through one voting pack before the deadline  :P

 

A lot of great levels in this set, especially at the end - I gave out a lot of 5's... Had to peek in the editor at #49 and #50, but I think I was just impatient - I was so close on both of them, especially #50.  I couldn't figure out where the trap at 24,25 was connected to because apparently I never bothered to walk back the ice pathway that led to it  :P

 

I think that might be it for me attempting to make it through entire voting packs before the deadline...but maybe I'll skip around in some of the packs and play a few more here and there...

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