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thinker

What 'Elements' -make a great level?

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You know what, never mind, and yeah I meant apparent to anyone with experience in the field. I'll never win any fight in this community anyway. Explaining would be too long, and I don't have the patience to deal with it.

By the way, thanks for the moral, Dave, I feel really really good right now. You don't even know what I was talking about, and you hand over morals like hot buns. Maybe I was right?

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How dare you accuse me of having morals! :P

 

Relax, Rock. I agree with you that the difficulty curve in CCLP3 isn't perfect. Neither is it in CC1 (SPIRALS, anyone?), and surely CCLP2 is a mess.

 

And yes, I am a grammar Nazi. :D

 

I really should watch more of your videos. Most of the time I'm not where I can listen.

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Well, he said "difficulty peak." I hate to be a pedant (though this rarely stops me from being one), but "difficulty peak" and "difficulty curve" are different concepts in my book.

 

I actually thought that the difficulty curve in CCLP3 was quite reasonable (complete with the odd "easy" level, like Marooned or Diabolical, as a breather).

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Well, he said "difficulty peak." I hate to be a pedant (though this rarely stops me from being one), but "difficulty peak" and "difficulty curve" are different concepts in my book.

 

I actually thought that the difficulty curve in CCLP3 was quite reasonable (complete with the odd "easy" level, like Marooned or Diabolical, as a breather).

 

Well now you are splitting hairs. And who says "a pedant"? That's abjectly confusing bananas! :plankton:

 

Additionally, I'm just annoying.

 

The difficulty curve in CCLP3 was okay I guess -- it's not like Same Game was level 29 or something. (Actually level 34 was a little difficult for its placement, but I get that.) As for a "peak", that's subjective. Some people found Suspended Animation to be the most difficult level, whereas I just found it fun.

 

Make a comic!

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...well, if you randomized the sequence of levels in any given LP, the difficulty "peak" would be the same, but the "curve" would be completely different (and quite possibly non-existent, at least in the form of a linear progression)...no?

 

(I guess I'm just annoying as well.)

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Considering that I haven't finished the set and have no plans to do so, I can hardly offer a reliable opinion. ;)

 

That said, there are a number of levels in which I can't even figure out the goal: e.g. 140, 144, 145. I guess I'd have to call these ones the "hardest," because I don't know where to start! At least with Avalanche or Same Game or Bug Arranging, I know what I'm supposed to do (I just don't know how to do it!).

 

 

What do you think the peak was?

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Well, it's hard for me to say. YCTaOFNT was certainly a challenge. So was Same Game -- I would never have figured that out without help.

 

The point of 140 isn't that hard to figure out -- get to the exit! No, seriously, if you want a hint on any level let me know.

 

Then again "Pushy" was a little tricky until I got the trick.

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Eh, I don't think I'd get much satisfaction out of completing a level with hints or avi's (I watched Ben's 144 avi 'cause I knew I'd never figure it out on my own). I'm a lazy sod; I'd rather leave the insane levels incomplete than put in the requisite effort to figure them out myself. But thanks for the offer! (Y)

 

 

(Re: Pushy, I figured out the secret pretty quickly, but executing it was something of a pain. Eventually, I said, "This is ridiculous; I'll try three more times, and then I'm through." The second time out, I got the partial post. So YAY for that.)

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Some levels in CCLP3 were just outright over-powered in my opinion, which caused me to lose my motivation toward the end of the set. Same Game, Recurring Dream, Suspended Animation, Rotation, Vulcan, and Old Frog New Tricks (somewhat) were examples of this, where the difficulty was unnecessarily high and could have been a lot easier and thus more fun. YCaOFNT seems to be more of a form of art though that had never been used so well before, which may seem crazy but it still explains why I love it so much.

 

On the other hand, levels such as We'll Be Right Back, YAYAP, Mudpie, and LUNiT are difficult in a much more natural way, in that they are difficult puzzles without so many "catches" involved just to make it harder (except for LUNiT but this was a whole different concept).

 

I'm not trying to argue against anyone's opinion here, I'm just adding my own opinion.

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I disagree with Rotation. Once you read the hint, and try it a few times, it's pretty straightforward. You just have to count in base 5.

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The problem I have with Rotation is the Suction boot and fire underneath blocks near the beginning, not the Riven part. The Riven part was awesome!

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Rotation was a great level and definitely suits in my top 5 favorite CCLP3 levels! As mostly everyone has said, YCTAOFNT was insanely difficult and the lineary of the level didn't help at all which is why I don't like that level at all. Same Game was merely just a boring sokoban with a difficult catch IMO. I didn't really like Vulcan because of the many different ways to solve it. The room with all those locks was pretty creative though! The other levels like Suspended Animation were just really confusing to understand. Avalanche remains as my favorite difficult level of the set, which is a surprise now because i disliked it when I first played it. But once you know how to solve the level, it's actually quite fun. Levels like Waterslide and Diabolical were great relievers in the set, but I didn't really like Waterslide TBH.

 

All my opinion as well. Not interfering with anyone elses.

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Some levels in CCLP3 were just outright over-powered in my opinion, which caused me to lose my motivation toward the end of the set. Same Game, Recurring Dream, Suspended Animation, Rotation, Vulcan, and Old Frog New Tricks (somewhat) were examples of this, where the difficulty was unnecessarily high and could have been a lot easier and thus more fun.

 

Well, I think that was one of the consequences of CCLP3 trying to appeal to the largest possible audience. You had simple little puzzles like Marooned sharing space with ridiculous brain teasers like Same Game. I doubt many people would love both levels equally...but the fact that they share space in the same levelset makes for quite the democratic playing experience.

 

 

Same Game was merely just a boring sokoban with a difficult catch IMO.

 

Really? I thought that the aesthetics of the level were far beyond 99% of sobokans. It was more than just Chip, blocks, and a bunch of walls. Same Game is one of those levels that's fun just to look at.

 

 

Levels like Waterslide and Diabolical were great relievers in the set, but I didn't really like Waterslide TBH.

 

I liked Waterslide, but I'd agree that were better "relievers" in CCLP3.

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Waterslide was terrible until I learned about the easier solution!

 

I'm a huge fan of Suspended Animation, even if my favorite solution only works in Lynx. :blink:

 

Avalanche was very hard, but once I got into it it was addictive. Same for YCTaOFNT, except that the teeth part at the very end was truly Diabolical (unlike Diabolical, which was pretty darn easy.)

 

Also a fan of YAYAP. Sure it takes forever, but once you figure out the trick is the bouncing block, it's straightforward.

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Suspended Animation's definitely a good 'un. It does an impressive job of packing a lot of stuff into the level without it ever feeling overcrowded.

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I remember upon first seeing "Suspended Animation," I was completely overwhelmed. But after playing through and discovering both solutions...it's really quite the nifty level. :)

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My solution to Suspended Animation in Lynx was basically impossible to execute in MS, so I had to use a completely different solution. I heard there were actually three.

 

I love that level.

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I don't actually know all three solutions. I only know the two I have done (flippers and fireboots for Lynx

 

 

and some other combination for MS that I can't remember. I believe BigOto2 posted that solution.) I remember hearing discussion of yet another combination.

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I think I'm going to make a level similar to this idea, where you must choose 2 types of boots to complete the level, but every combination is a different solution. I don't think I can re-create the design of Suspended Animation into my own at all :)

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I've been thinking of making something like that using the concept from "Block Head," but I'm not sure how it would be done, exactly...

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My solution to Suspended Animation in Lynx was basically impossible to execute in MS, so I had to use a completely different solution.

Both the solutions can be executed in both modes.

 

I heard there were actually three.

That would be news to me...

 

- Madhav.

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