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Who made the toughest levels in CCLP3

Who made the toughest levels in CCLP3, on average?  

14 members have voted

  1. 1. Which of these designers has the highest average taken over the level numbers of the levels they designed in CCLP3? Basically, on average how far are their levels in the set?

  2. 2. How about for these other designers? (This one is much closer, so just answer by what you feel and I'll post the exact results later.)



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I was interested in calculating the average of how far in CCLP3 a designer's levels are, giving a feel for how difficult thier levels were on average. The ranked the seven designers with the most levels in the set. Joshua Bone is not in the above questions, because his 15 levels were much easier, despite having a couple placed much later in the set than their actual difficulty would indicate, with an average of 63. I'll post the exact results, but thought it might be fun to first ask people how they feel it should go.

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I'd probably say Madhav overall. Pieguy had a few surprisingly easy/medium difficulty ones. Tyler's "Everybody Get Dangerous" was more of a pain in the arse than it actually looked.

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I'd definitely have to go with Madhav here. Even if it appeared early in the set, Vague Dream is still quite a challenge to conquer. Lead Us Not into Temptation is probably the only other level that could be called somewhat "easy" compared to the others, which are clearly designed to be solved over a much, much longer period of time.

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Thanks. I'd say that as far as the raw numbers go, Madhav and John made approximately the same number of really hard levels. That said, on the average, Madhav's levels are significantly harder than John's.

 

I didn't have much of a problem with LUNIT either. I thought it was one of the easier levels in the 100's.

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I think it's interesting that the difficulty portion of the voting was somewhat affected by the knowledge that some people had about certain levels by these designers. For instance, we had some people rate some of pieguy's and Madhav's easier levels - including many that didn't make CCLP3 - a full difficulty rating, even when it was clear those levels were not even close to ultra-difficult.

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...like Waterslide?

 

BTW, how were the CCLP3 levels arranged? I have to assume that including Diabolical and Marooned relatively late in the set was a conscious choice...no?

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We tried to respect the order when we could, but there were some levels that clearly didn't belong in the positions in which they were voted; for instance, Triple Maze and Vague Dream were among the most highly rated in difficulty. Waterslide was actually voted "lower" in difficulty than its position in the set, but we moved it there to break up the string of puzzles around it and because it does require quite a bit of playing skill depending on which solution is used. Marooned and Diabolical were positioned accordingly for the same reasons. The "Chip's travels" levels, however, were the most significantly concentrated examples of deviation from the difficulty order, as many of them would have been placed earlier in the set (Take the I Train, Fireball Tourism, The Haunted House, Niche, etc.).

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At least we can be glad the level in CCLP3 didn't have the original version of the force floor room. ;)

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I didn't even realize people found Everybody Get Dangerous to be difficult (Y)

 

There are a few tricky and devious rooms, mostly in the 2nd half, and it takes over 5 minutes to beat on a regular playthrough.

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In fact, when J.B. originally told me the positions of my levels in CCLP3, I thought they were all too late in the set, with the exception of Jumble which I thought was too early (and Entrance Examination).

 

My votes went to Madhav and Tom R. There were three levels that I couldn't solve on my own so I blatantly copied the AVI solutions, and they were Vulcan, YCTaOFNT, and Suspended Animation. I think people overestimate the difficulty of pieguy's levels. Keep in mind that essentially none of his levels in CCLP3 focus on monster manipulation. Tom R. has no difficult levels per se, but Ida has more easier levels and I always underestimate the difficulty of my own levels.

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Tyler, your levels are easier to you because you think that way. I can't understand why people don't like "Squared", but it has weird tricks that only I like.

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^ This. If anything, playtesting CCLP3 and trying to create CCLP1-friendly levels has been an interesting exercise in trying to think like a first-time player.

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Yeah, we need to be really careful about this. CCLP1 must be approachable. (No SPIRALS or Checkboard I)

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I don't know about the toughest, but Andrew R.'s single contribution to CCLP3 was definitely the best level, by far.

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I don't know about the toughest, but Andrew R.'s single contribution to CCLP3 was definitely the best level, by far.

 

I think Welcoming is my best level, but Final Destination is by far your best level, Tom! (Y)

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I think Welcoming is my best level, but Final Destination is by far your best level, Tom! (Y)

 

I was talking about CCLP3 only.

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I think people overestimate the difficulty of pieguy's levels.

 

True, but the poll is asking for our estimation of how far (on average) those designers had their levels in CCLP3. Even though Madhav had the hardest levels, I voted for pieguy in that section for this reason. (I didn't do a hard calculation though...)

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Even at that, I think Madhav would still win, even with Vague Dream). Pieguy has Road Block, Possible, and Triple Maze.

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Triple Maze is just visually tough. But the level itself isn't that bad. It would of been better if you can choose whatever boots you want first and still safely exit (Y)

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Even at that, I think Madhav would still win, even with Vague Dream). Pieguy has Road Block, Possible, and Triple Maze.

 

Ok, I'm going out of my way to calculate this :P

 

PG: 147, 143, 138, 135, 123, 117, 115, 81, 13: Average 112.44

Madhav: 146, 145, 144, 134, 131, 122, 114, 33: Average 121.13

 

Madhav "wins", but if you also include the level he made as "CCLP3 staff", his average drops down to 111.44 and Pieguy "wins".

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Triple Maze is just visually tough. But the level itself isn't that bad. It would of been better if you can choose whatever boots you want first and still safely exit (Y)

 

But as you start the level, you can see that you need the suction boots to exit, so taking them first is a clear mistake. There's also some hidden beauty in the optimal route in this level.

 

Also, I'll post my calculations pretty soon (they are on a different computer).

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But as you start the level, you can see that you need the suction boots to exit, so taking them first is a clear mistake. There's also some hidden beauty in the optimal route in this level.

 

I know that. What I meant was it would of been better IF you can choose any particular order of boots to complete the level. Meaning there could of been an exit behind both water and fire. This is just an opinion, I know it would completely destroy the design of the level if one were to do this.

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Let's settle this:

Ida: 14, 15, 19, 44, 67, 80, 89, 116, 124, 132. Average: 70

Me: 1, 27, 49. 69, 104, 112, 129. Average: 70.14

Tom R: 51, 61, 65, 68, 73, 111. Average: 71.5

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Let's settle this:

Ida: 14, 15, 19, 44, 67, 80, 89, 116, 124, 132. Average: 70

Me: 1, 27, 49. 69, 104, 112, 129. Average: 70.14

Tom R: 51, 61, 65, 68, 73, 111. Average: 71.5

 

Just out of curiosity. Who made the easiest on average overall then?

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...yeah, I'm not convinced that that's the best way to judge it. I mean, whoever designed Diabolical (or Marooned) is gonna have a higher average than they really "deserve."

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Just out of curiosity. Who made the easiest on average overall then?

 

Firefly, whose only level is level 2 :P

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I haven't played enough of CCLP3 to really gauge the difficulty of the levels, especially the ones everyone is touting as difficult and which I haven't touched. I'm not surprised that I haven't come up at all in this discussion, though. Of my two levels, one (level 45, Block Head) is essentially a series of not-very-diabolical block-pushing puzzles, where the only part that might possibly constitute a beginner's trap is the blocks on (2,16) through (4,16), as the player cannot window-shop to determine which block to push first. In retrospect, had I realized this, I probably would have changed this in some way. (A simple solution is ice corners at (1,13) and (2,13).) Then again, this occurs early enough in the level and can only cause one restart at the most, so it's not too bad. The other level (level 98, Mouth-Watering) is a bit more difficult with its false paths and red herrings, but the false paths early on hit dead ends quickly, and ChipWiki goes into detail about the logic a Chip's Challenge veteran can use to narrow down which exit is the correct one based on the fact that the level was accepted into CCLP3 in the first place.

 

(I think it shows a lot about how bad I am at video games when I'm given the "skip level?" dialog box on level 99, Freezer. x.x)

 

Edit: Oh, and level 100 (Sardines). I'll never forgive myself for this line of thought. . .

 

 

Wow, I sure hope I don't have to lead gliders into this sokoban-looking area. Oh, that wouldn't work, because when it hits this space in the bomb area, it'll just keep turning right and looping infinitely. *later* Duh, gliders turn left!

 

 

Yeah, when I fail that badly at level 100 in a level set, I'm no longer qualified to talk about difficulty. :P

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...well, despite Spirals and On The Rocks, we all became CC fans...right? ;)

 

What's wrong with Spirals, besides the Spirals corruption? I found that level not hard at all!

 

On The Rocks, though.. that got annoying if you died just before reaching the exit. :D

 

Anyway, I've been so busy with trying to complete the last few levels of CC1 that I have to agree with mathgrant on this one. I'll probably be on David's levels a lot [besides Road Block <_< ]

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I didn't find ON THE ROCKS hard. I liked it, in fact. But eff you, SPIRALS. I have no idea whether I had the corrupt version or not, because by the time I learned there were two versions of the level, I just gave up on it.

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Mouth-watering is a great level! I will admit I had to look at the map to find the exit. The start is ingenious, and the false paths are sufficiently frustrating.

 

I gave up on SPIRALS for years. In fact, until I had an editor and could "corrupt" (or "uncorrupt") it, I could not complete it in MS. In Lynx, which was what it was designed for, it's not that hard at all -- shouldn't take you more than a few tries.

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Mouth-watering is a great level! I will admit I had to look at the map to find the exit. The start is ingenious, and the false paths are sufficiently frustrating.

 

I gave up on SPIRALS for years. In fact, until I had an editor and could "corrupt" (or "uncorrupt") it, I could not complete it in MS. In Lynx, which was what it was designed for, it's not that hard at all -- shouldn't take you more than a few tries.

 

Yeah, I never even had the corrupted version, I never even knew there was one until recently. I beat it after a few tries when I was 5 -- I was slow back then and got walker'd. :P

 

I attempted Mouth-Watering on Will's World [CC app for app store] once. Gave up on that XD

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Yeah, I never even had the corrupted version, I never even knew there was one until recently. I beat it after a few tries when I was 5 -- I was slow back then and got walker'd. :P

 

I attempted Mouth-Watering on Will's World [CC app for app store] once. Gave up on that XD

 

Wow. I was much older than 5 when I gave up on Spirals. I really don't know whether I sucked at video games or at patience or both – I was able to beat Super Mario Bros. 3, but gave up on Kirby's Dream Land and on various Chip's Challenge levels including SPIRALS and MORTON(!), if that lets you judge my skill level with any effectiveness.

 

Seeing that you pwned SPIRALS but gave up on my level feels kinda ironic. Then again, making a hard level is much easier than making a hard level that's fun enough to be in CCLP3. . . :P

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Wow. I was much older than 5 when I gave up on Spirals. I really don't know whether I sucked at video games or at patience or both – I was able to beat Super Mario Bros. 3, but gave up on Kirby's Dream Land and on various Chip's Challenge levels including SPIRALS and MORTON(!), if that lets you judge my skill level with any effectiveness.

 

Seeing that you pwned SPIRALS but gave up on my level feels kinda ironic. Then again, making a hard level is much easier than making a hard level that's fun enough to be in CCLP3. . . :P

 

MORTON,

 

I was scared of this level when I was 5, playing CC on my Win. 98.

 

Also, I haven't quite gave up on Mouth-Watering yet. Just for iPod I have, because Will's World is impossible to complete CCLP3 levels with MSCC skills. :P

 

Also, if anyone was interested, here's my AVI of SPIRALS that I got on my first try attempting it in about seven years that I uploaded a few weeks ago in my playthrough of CC1:

 

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I loved Mouth Watering. A very clever level, and pretty singular in the CC world (maybe there are similar levels in custom sets, but I've never found any).

 

On The Rocks is boring, and Spirals ranges from boring to annoying, imo. Of course, there are even possibly worse levels, like Cityblock and Pain and Cake Walk, but...

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While I certainly found On the Rocks to be tedious, I thought it was a lot more interesting with the exploration it offered than Mind Block, which offered very little.

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Mind Block at least gave you options; the water pretty much forced you to do OTR in a certain way. Plus, it's shorter (or at least feels that way).

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On the Rocks - Boring and Tedious. Knowing you have the freedom to bridge anywhere in the level is pretty great though.

 

Cityblock - Pretty good till the ending.

 

Spirals - Fun and enjoyable, corrupted or not. I never played the corrupted version though.

 

Pain - Horrible.

 

Cake Walk - Actually pretty fun but it's not a level I would want to replay.

 

Mind Block - I loved, regardless of a small exploration area.

 

*Mouth-Watering - As I said before, I loved the concept at the beginning so much, finding the real exit wasn't a problem to me :)

 

*CCLP3 level

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Spirals - Fun and enjoyable, corrupted or not. I never played the corrupted version though.

 

Eh?

 

Of my two levels, one (level 45, Block Head) is essentially a series of not-very-diabolical block-pushing puzzles, [...] The other level (level 98, Mouth-Watering) is a bit more difficult

 

I'd just like to say that Block Head so far is my favourite level in CCLP3!

I haven't come so far as to Mouth-Watering, but now that I've learned that it's by the same designer as Block Head, I'm really looking forward to playing it.

 

/Ida

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On the Rocks - Boring and Tedious. Knowing you have the freedom to bridge anywhere in the level is pretty great though.

 

Pain - Horrible.

 

I think On The Rocks and Pain are by far the worst levels in the original Chip's Challenge.,Mind Block is slightly better than those two because it's not as long, and Cityblock is actually a decent level, until the devious end part.

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I think On The Rocks and Pain are by far the worst levels in the original Chip's Challenge.

 

It's pretty hard to argue with that. I can't agree that Cityblock is a decent level, any more than I can agree that the Star Wars Holiday Special is a decent piece of celluloid, but I suppose it at least has variety going for it. And that toggle wall/block room does look pretty cool.

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I used to enjoy Cityblock because (a) the ice/force floor room in the SW offered some welcome variety (and made me go, "Yay, more blocks that are closer to the end goal!"), and (B) the sokoban at the end, while frustrating due to its placement in the level, was one of those concepts with which I was obsessed as a kid.

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I used to enjoy Cityblock because (a) the ice/force floor room in the SW offered some welcome variety (and made me go, "Yay, more blocks that are closer to the end goal!"), and ( B) the sokoban at the end, while frustrating due to its placement in the level, was one of those concepts with which I was obsessed as a kid.

 

Those are interesting facts J.B. but I just love how the "b" turned cool :P

 

I honestly like the sokoban concept at the end as well, however, being that it is at the end of a really long block pushing level makes me dislike it a lot. It wouldn't be so bad or have so much hatred if it were at least in the beginning of the level :)

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This is going to sound kind of sad, but almost all of the levels I made on paper (and sadly, have since lost) when I was about 7 years old had Cityblock-esque sokobans in them. :P

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This is going to sound kind of sad, but almost all of the levels I made on paper (and sadly, have since lost) when I was about 7 years old had Cityblock-esque sokobans in them. :P

 

You made levels on paper as a kid too?!?! WOW me too!! :D I always thought I was one of the only ones :P

 

If you really wanna hear something more sad than that, I made about 700+ levels on paper when I was younger (and to top it off, I lost ALL of them) :(

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All the levels I ever designed on paper (probably only 3) involved elements that didn't even exist in CC, i.e. maps that were bigger than 32x32, teleports that were wired to each other, and thieves that stole keys (Y)

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I'm impressed! I mean that you designed that many levels (and on paper no less!), not that you lost them.

 

This is probably why I have over 400+ levels available on the Internet :P

 

All the levels I ever designed on paper (probably only 3) involved elements that didn't even exist in CC, i.e. maps that were bigger than 32x32, teleports that were wired to each other, and thieves that stole keys (Y)

 

LOL that's just awesome (Y)

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I made an entire notebook of Chip's Challenge levels that I played with my finger and acted like the monsters and blocks moved too.

(Y):teeth:(Y)

 

Also, I STILL have it!!

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Bear in mind that I made these before even knowing that an editor existed. ;)

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What confuses you about what I said about Spirals?

 

Well, how can you say that Spirals is fun and enjoyable, corrupted or not - if you haven't even played the corrupted version? (The corrupted version = the hard version, right?) I only knew of the hard version, and that was very frustrating I can tell you. We (my siblings and I) thought it was possible to finish it, obviously, since it was in the set, (and we were quite close actually). As I said, very frustrating. (I know now that it IS possible, if you're like Pieguy or someone :S )

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I made an entire notebook of Chip's Challenge levels that I played with my finger and acted like the monsters and blocks moved too.

 

That's awesome! Wish I'd been that creative and resourceful as a kid, at the peak of my CC obsession. ;)

 

 

Well, how can you say that Spirals is fun and enjoyable, corrupted or not - if you haven't even played the corrupted version? (The corrupted version = the hard version, right?) I only knew of the hard version, and that was very frustrating I can tell you. We (my siblings and I) thought it was possible to finish it, obviously, since it was in the set, (and we were quite close actually). As I said, very frustrating. (I know now that it IS possible, if you're like Pieguy or someone :S )

 

Haha, word. I doubt anyone would seriously consider the corrupted version to be "fun and enjoyable." :)

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Well, how can you say that Spirals is fun and enjoyable, corrupted or not - if you haven't even played the corrupted version? (The corrupted version = the hard version, right?) I only knew of the hard version, and that was very frustrating I can tell you. We (my siblings and I) thought it was possible to finish it, obviously, since it was in the set, (and we were quite close actually). As I said, very frustrating. (I know now that it IS possible, if you're like Pieguy or someone :S )

 

I was only saying I liked the level. I don't have to play the corrupted version to determine my liking of the level. I still think Spirals is fun and enjoyable, regardless if it's corrupted or not.

 

If I haven't made my point clear there, then I don't know what else to tell you. I just like the level.

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That's fair enough if you like the level; I think Ida's point is just that the corrupted version is so much more difficult that it might as well qualify as a wholly different level-playing experience. It wouldn't be inconceivable for someone to enjoy the original version while detesting the corrupted version.

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Well it's understandable either way I guess. I never actually got the corrupted version of Spirals before and I don't think editing it to make it corrupt it just for the experience is a good idea.

 

Sorry if I sound harsh or anything. It's just hard for me to make my point clear sometimes...

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How about Pieguy's " color wheel"??

 

If you think Color Wheel is hard, wait until you get to the 140s :)

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Color Wheel is fun, except for the tank part at the end. Spirals "corrupted" was the original version -- it's just so hard in MS that Microsoft got a clue and made it easier in the "best of" series. In Lynx it's a fun level either way.

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Surely Same Game is slightly easier to solve than YCTAOFNT...slightly, at least?

 

I only said Same Game in comparison to Color Wheel (both being sokobans) :P

 

But yes somewhat slightly easier than YCTAOFNT :)

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All of the ultra-difficult levels in CCLP3 are clever, imo. Even some of the CCLP2 levels, for as much as I despise them, are quite clever (YAP, for instance).

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Color Wheel is fun, except for the tank part at the end. Spirals "corrupted" was the original version -- it's just so hard in MS that Microsoft got a clue and made it easier in the "best of" series. In Lynx it's a fun level either way.

 

I have WEP4 (as well as 1, 2, and 3) but it's not the corrupted version... Maybe they caught it fairly early after the release and fixed it for later versions of the WEPs?

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After playing a few hours and raging on Old Frog New Tricks, I think 144 and 149 should have switched level positions. My friend and I agree it would have worked better as a bonus level.

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I dunno...Mr. McCallahan Presents just seems like the perfect way to finish a levelset...it would just be too gauche to end the pack with Old Frog.

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I dunno...Mr. McCallahan Presents just seems like the perfect way to finish a levelset...it would just be too gauche to end the pack with Old Frog.

 

That's why I think Mr. McCallahan Presents works better at 144 than 149. Casual players would have far more trouble with Old Frog in my opinion.

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I think casual players would have had more than their share of trouble by the time they got to level 144, regardless of which level was placed in that slot. ;)

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Others did the math so I didn't get around to announcing the actual results. All I can add is JB's average is 91.9 and Joshua's 63.5. I didn't calculate for designers with only a few levels.

 

Interesting about the Spirals different versions. I had assumed WEP4 had the corrupt version and it was fixed for BoWEP.

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The reason they are more aggressive is that they can't choose a "bad" direction if a good one is available.

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I dunno...Mr. McCallahan Presents just seems like the perfect way to finish a levelset...it would just be too gauche to end the pack with Old Frog.

I agree. :)

Besides, Mr. McCallahan Presents perfectly finishes off the story as well.

 

Casual players would have far more trouble with Old Frog in my opinion.

I think casual players would have had more than their share of trouble by the time they got to level 144, regardless of which level was placed in that slot. ;)

Right, and having the cypher password allows them to "legally" skip over 144.

 

- Madhav.

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I was kind of hoping Recurring Dream would be the last level for a while with all of its references (which I found more clever than my own in Mr. McCallahan Presents). But I like the way it turned out.

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...again, ending with Recurring Dream would be a tad obvious, imo. And like Madhav said, MMP is a great cap to the story.

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I agree. :)

Besides, Mr. McCallahan Presents perfectly finishes off the story as well.

 

 

 

Right, and having the cypher password allows them to "legally" skip over 144.

 

- Madhav.

 

Eh, maybe Recurring Dream would have been better as level 144.

 

By the way Madhav, you and JB have my favourite CCLP3 levels I've played so far: Reoccuring Dream and Mr. McCallahan Presents. (Y) (Y)

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Perhaps the storyline for CCLP4 should be about an entire clubhouse created by Chip -- after which he gets amnesia and must rediscover his own path.

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I think it should expand on the "relationship" between Chip and Melinda, sitcom-like. By the time of CCLP19, it could be a bona fide soap opera.

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If amnesia is involved, it's already going down the soap opera path. :P

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Melinda should take advantage of his amnesia and do a mindf--- with him.

 

"Ok, Chip, go back into the clubhouse. No, you aren't a member of the Bit Busters yet. No, you haven't yet earned the right to take me to the E-prom. No, I'm not giving you any hints regarding 'You Can't Teach An Old Frog New Tricks.' Yes, you must complete 'Bloblake' and 'the end of all time.'"

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Perhaps the storyline for CCLP4 should be about an entire clubhouse created by Chip -- after which he gets amnesia and must rediscover his own path.

 

This is actually pretty great! I can totally see this happening as the CCLP4 storyline :)

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If Chip has to solve "the end of all time," the quest should be to scavenge the clubhouse for resources that can be used to build a cryogenic storage unit. :P

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