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Most difficult levels in existence?

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What are the most difficult levels to solve that exist? What makes them difficult? Which ones have you completed?

 

I would think there's at least two types of difficulty here: hard to find a solution and hard to execute a solution. Of course some levels can be both.

 

I'll make a list too, just don't have it right now.

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So, let's see here...

YCTaOFNT fits for both extremely well, and I've solved it.

Bloblake is hard to execute, and I haven't done that one.

Lounge Act, Plug In Baby, and Gimmick Isle part deux fit in both, and I've beaten them all.

Suspended Animation fits both too.

 

I'll find more later.

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Plug In Baby was never intended to be, nor is it, a challenging level (Y)

 

Well OK fine. It's hard to figure out, but easy-ish to execute.

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There's also the levels that are difficult for reasons beyond the minds of us mere mortals: "the most insane level ever!", etc. :)

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I really LIKE Plug In Baby, as opposed to, say, Lounge Act....

 

And are we talking about levels with lots of false leads, like Magic Trick or The End of All Good Things? ;)

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Technically, the hardest level to solve would be The End of All Time, because a computer would have to last longer than the time until a solar apocalypse, which is seemingly impossible.

 

Some other really hard ones:

 

- Totally Unfair

- Doublemaze

- YAYAP (so much decoy stuff that isn't even possible to get)

- Same Game

- Old Frog New Tricks

- Suspended Animation

 

And of course Pieguy's The Most Insane Level Ever, and many, many others from his set.

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I've got to admit - I'm hesitant about including "Doublemaze" in lists like these. It is a hard level because it's a maze that's difficult to navigate...but on the other hand, you can't die at all. :)

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I've been playing some CheeseT1 levels again lately, and a lot of those have some difficult monster dodging... The worst is probably level 22, British Bulldogs - possibly the most walkers Chip has to dodge in any custom level ever... :blink:

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I think my Guidance for Experts in JoshL2 is probably the hardest level in that set to me.

 

4 of my levels in JoshL3 are extremely difficult:

 

-Sealed Sokoban

-Exploding Oil Ship

-Strategizing the Field

-Josh's Nightmare (revenge level that involves guesswork AND lucky timing)

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I think my Guidance for Experts in JoshL2 is probably the hardest level in that set to me.

 

4 of my levels in JoshL3 are extremely difficult:

 

-Sealed Sokoban

-Exploding Oil Ship

-Strategizing the Field

-Josh's Nightmare (revenge level that involves guesswork AND lucky timing)

 

The Josh's Nightmare one sounds like an CC Zone award level itself without looking. :P

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The Josh's Nightmare one sounds like an CC Zone award level itself without looking. :P

 

LOL It has a lot of those CCLP2 moments, including a NoBS/hot block portion and Keep Trying (random force floor) guesswork right at the end! It should have an award :D:flareon:

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How about almost all of TCCLPRejects? ;)

 

NO. Just no.

 

... is an example of a hard level in that set :P

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NO. Just no.

 

... is an example of a hard level in that set :P

 

lol

 

As is I Wish II, and III, and 'Parity' Bit, and Hell, and The Block is a Callous Entity, And Return, and Frost Rings Large, and...

 

I give up.

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I Wish II and III are short, Parity Bit is probably 1000x easier than The Wrong Parity, Hell is just dumb, The Block is a Callous Entity, isn't that hard, Return is pretty much based on luck, and Frost Rings Large may not even be possible.

 

(Y)

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I Wish II and III are short, Parity Bit is probably 1000x easier than The Wrong Parity, Hell is just dumb, The Block is a Callous Entity, isn't that hard, Return is pretty much based on luck, and Frost Rings Large may not even be possible.

 

(Y)

 

It doesn't change the fact that they're still hard...

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Of the ones I've solved, these took the longest to just figure out:

 

CCLP3 #144 (YCTaOFNT)

CCLP3 #147 (Avalanche)

pi^2.dat #10 (avalanche)

pi^2.dat #14 (avalanche II)

pi^2.dat #15 (modulo fourteen)

 

I also spent quite some time on these, though not quite as much as the ones above:

 

CCLP3 #137 (Vulcan)

CCLP3 #143 (Same Game)

pi.dat #12 (the wrong parity)

computer.dat #10 (different game)

minustwo.dat #4 (D)

KeyboardWielder.dat #121 (In the Line of Fire)

 

I haven't solved these, but suspect these should also be mentioned:

 

pi-rejects.dat #8 (bugs)

pi^2.dat #13 (crash and burn)

minusone.dat #9

minustwo.dat #8 (H)

 

There's only a couple in there that are challenging to execute once you know what to do. I also remember taking forever to solve Checkerboard I long ago without a map :-)

 

-Miika

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By the way, about minustwo: I'm attempting to solve H based on the assumption that I is unsolvable...is that correct?
H is technically solvable, but likely unsolvable without computer assistance. I'd aim for G.

 

I should take another look at this set. ^_^

 

pi^2.dat #13 (crash and burn)

 

YES! This level is deceptively complex. I was only able to find a partial solution (and considering the level designer, it may well be a false lead).

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Oh man, my question is why make a level if only to say "ha, I made the hardest level ever, no one's ever gonna solve it"

 

Seriously, I think it blows and has absolutely no other purpose than just showing off.

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Keep in mind that all of these ultra-difficult levels were created during the drought when nothing was happening CCLP-wise. :) Now that the community and Level Pack-creating is vibrant again, there's much less of a need for this, particularly since the playing style is now gravitating toward Let's Play-appropriate levels.

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Appropriate-ness isn't that much of a concern for me, but being human it is. Not mad scientists, nor robots.

 

And approving or praising those levels and level-making methods and/or concepts, that's meh.

 

IMO, you make maximum one of these in your life, not 68.

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IMO, you make maximum one of these in your life, not 68.

 

It is important to remember that there do exist people who enjoy solving (and creating) difficult puzzle-style levels. The presence of these levels in CCLPs is definitely a point of contention, but to look down upon such levels even in custom sets is to reject an entire style of playing.

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^ This.

 

I guess there are always going to be certain levels that I'll look at with the understanding that I won't be able to solve them on my first try or even in a matter of ten minutes. So if I can resign myself to the possibility that they may take a few months to figure out, I'm all set. :)

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I don't make many super hard levels anymore. I actually miss making easy ones so I've gone back to making mostly easy to medium difficulty levels because they're more fun than the hard and frustrating ones I made in the past, although maybe 2 or 3 will get in the set just to complete the collection. :)

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Oh man, my question is why make a level if only to say "ha, I made the hardest level ever, no one's ever gonna solve it"

 

Seriously, I think it blows and has absolutely no other purpose than just showing off.

 

I enjoy designing hard levels in the same manner that I enjoy solving hard levels. And as long as people keep solving them, I'll keep making them. Sometimes it's possible to create a very difficult level without even realizing it. I didn't think "crash and burn" was a very difficult level when I released it, but it's currently my longest-running unsolved level (5+ years).

 

Some of my difficult levels were born out of curiosity more than anything else, such as my computer.dat levels, and minustwo.dat #8. My goal was to create a level so hard that even I couldn't solve it, and with minustwo.dat #8 I finally succeeded. In the same manner, with the end-of-all-time levels I was curious to see just how long of a level could be made (and I've now pushed the limit well past a googol years). They're obviously impractical, but still interesting nonetheless.

 

The bottom line for me is that the harder a level is, the more satisfying it is to solve (usually). I say usually because one needs to contrast "real" difficulty with "fake" difficulty (see http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty).

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So that's why you are such a legend. Glad you brought that article up, for it proves that most of CCLP3 is made of fake difficulty. Interesting, and I really want to hear what people will say about it. (That's exactly why I am not enjoying fully my playing experience, which I'm sure you already heard somewhere through the grapevine)

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I'd say that CCLP2 is far more guilty of "fake difficulty" than CCLP3. There are a few levels in CCLP3 that I'm not fond of, but overall it's quite a fine set.

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I've been playing some CheeseT1 levels again lately, and a lot of those have some difficult monster dodging... The worst is probably level 22, British Bulldogs - possibly the most walkers Chip has to dodge in any custom level ever... :blink:

 

It took me forever to finally beat this level. I think Rock would really enjoy this. Maybe he could LP it? He made a special video for JUMPING SWARM... It's just a suggestion... :-)

 

~Bowman

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I got so many projects in my hands right now, to come down to it, I might eventually do it, but I'd not expect that in a near future.

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My goal was to create a level so hard that even I couldn't solve it, and with minustwo.dat #8 I finally succeeded.

 

Wait...so how do you know that it's solvable? What am I missing here?

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Wait...so how do you know that it's solvable? What am I missing here?

 

He had a computer solve it.

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I'd say that CCLP2 is far more guilty of "fake difficulty" than CCLP3. There are a few levels in CCLP3 that I'm not fond of, but overall it's quite a fine set.

 

^ This. I can at least appreciate a level like "You Can't Teach an Old Frog New Tricks" because I figured out almost all of it unassisted (with the exception of one room) and almost entirely on pure logic. The challenges in the level felt in no way needless. There was only one aspect of the level for which I had to utilize guesswork, for which I later discovered that the guesswork was completely unnecessary, and I simply missed an important clue. So once I was done, the playing experience was quite satisfactory. I felt similarly about most of the rest of CCLP3.

 

On the other hand, a level like "Checkerboard I" is difficult because of guesswork - providing that the player isn't consulting a map. There's no reason for the blue walls to be in this level at all; they just make the level more needlessly difficult. There's no real learning or actual thinking in which the player has to take part during a failed attempt in order to solve the level on future attempts; it's merely, "Oh, so this wall is fake, so I guess I have to go through there." The same can be said about a level like "Chip Search" or a level like "Warehouse II" that could've been condensed into a smaller space with the needlessly long passages and turns eliminated while retaining the same basic challenge.

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Its fake difficulty comes from other points than just plain guesswork, in this case points 3 and 4: Denial of information critical to progress (so you end up trying something not knowing if it's going to work) and mainly The outcome of the game is influenced by decisions that were uninformed at the time and cannot be undone. CCLP3's fake difficulty in my opinion is based around learning from mistakes, which were not always possible to avoid in the first run. From my understanding of gaming, again in my opinion, a skilled player should be able to clear any level (given its fairness) on his first try, knowing what he's doing. That's exactly how I felt when I played Cloner's Maze and Stress Fracture, for which I applause their respective designers.

 

That being said, I don't really mind about it. The problem is probably more that I'm not this type of gamer, for which I accept my blindness when it happens to be that way.

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From my understanding of gaming, again in my opinion, a skilled player should be able to clear any level (given its fairness) on his first try, knowing what he's doing.

 

"Commit Suicide?" is one of my favorite CCLP3 levels, even though no one is going to get it on their first try (unless they've looked at a map).

 

The thing is, you can use logic to figure it out eventually. The long run of chips in the corridor after the force floors are a dead giveaway; actually, I think the level would have been better if there had only been two or three chips there. It would have made the solution a bit more difficult to discover.

 

Anyway, the level's not based on pure guesswork. You don't have to scrounge all over the map for hidden buttons that have unclear consequences, and you don't have to unlock a maze of doors (most of which have traps buried underneath them).

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On the other hand, a level like "Checkerboard I" is difficult because of guesswork - providing that the player isn't consulting a map. There's no reason for the blue walls to be in this level at all; they just make the level more needlessly difficult. There's no real learning or actual thinking in which the player has to take part during a failed attempt in order to solve the level on future attempts; it's merely, "Oh, so this wall is fake, so I guess I have to go through there."

 

Exactly. There's no satisfaction in completing those sorts of levels.

 

Some of the CCLP2 levels make me imagine an alternate universe in which "Totally Unfair" truly was totally unfair. In this alternate universe, the inner Teeth section is amended, so that even having a perfect map from "Totally Fair" would be useless. The only way to solve the level, apart from looking in an editor, would be by pure guesswork (and a lot of patience and gritted teeth).

 

What makes "Totally Unfair" a great level is the fact that once you figure out the secret (and it's an entirely logical process), you feel a sense of accomplishment.

 

 

Actually, for the record, I think there are much harder CC levels out there; I'm baffled as to why the Wiki rates "Totally Unfair" as a five-star level. Between the hint and the nearly-identical structure to "Totally Fair," it's far easier to figure out than something like YCTAOFNT.

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"Commit Suicide?" is one of my favorite CCLP3 levels, even though no one is going to get it on their first try (unless they've looked at a map).

 

The thing is, you can use logic to figure it out eventually. The long run of chips in the corridor after the force floors are a dead giveaway; actually, I think the level would have been better if there had only been two or three chips there. It would have made the solution a bit more difficult to discover.

 

Anyway, the level's not based on pure guesswork. You don't have to scrounge all over the map for hidden buttons that have unclear consequences, and you don't have to unlock a maze of doors (most of which have traps buried underneath them).

 

Traps under locks should not appear much in the future, since it's not lynx-compatible. I made a whole level of keys under doors called Key Hell -- one of the worst levels I ever made.

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No offense to anyone whose levels feature significantly in CCLP2, but that set just smacks of a kid who's just acquired a great new toy but doesn't know just what to do with it. Like a child who sits down at a piano for the first time and just starts banging on the keys. It's a lot of fun for that person, but also pretty annoying for anyone within earshot.

 

A handful of levels are fiendishly clever and genuinely good (the one where you have to use the glider to erase the buried bomb comes to mind), but so much of CCLP2 seems to be made with an approach along the lines of "the editor allows me to use tiles and combinations that weren't in CC1, so let's use all of them, even when the level doesn't demand it!" I remember my excitement at discovering the existence of said set...and then my immense disappointment when I actually sat down to play it.

 

 

I suspect that, somewhere out there, someone has made a level in which Chip starts in the northwest corner and has to make his way to the exit square in the southeast corner. The entire grid appears empty, but most of the tiles are actually buried traps.

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No offense to anyone whose levels feature significantly in CCLP2, but that set just smacks of a kid who's just acquired a great new toy but doesn't know just what to do with it. Like a child who sits down at a piano for the first time and just starts banging on the keys. It's a lot of fun for that person, but also pretty annoying for anyone within earshot.

 

A handful of levels are fiendishly clever and genuinely good (the one where you have to use the glider to erase the buried bomb comes to mind), but so much of CCLP2 seems to be made with an approach along the lines of "the editor allows me to use tiles and combinations that weren't in CC1, so let's use all of them, even when the level doesn't demand it!" I remember my excitement at discovering the existence of said set...and then my immense disappointment when I actually sat down to play it.

 

 

I suspect that, somewhere out there, someone has made a level in which Chip starts in the northwest corner and has to make his way to the exit square in the southeast corner. The entire grid appears empty, but most of the tiles are actually buried traps.

 

Yeah, that's why CCLP2 is my least favourite of the 3 main sets. The ones that annoy me most are traps under floors. fake exits, or bombs appearing out of nowhere. Sure, CCLP2's invalid tiles made me use them alot in TomP1 and TomP2, but looking back at those sets, I realised that it was a bad idea and would never use them again.

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No offense to anyone whose levels feature significantly in CCLP2, but that set just smacks of a kid who's just acquired a great new toy but doesn't know just what to do with it. Like a child who sits down at a piano for the first time and just starts banging on the keys. It's a lot of fun for that person, but also pretty annoying for anyone within earshot.

 

A handful of levels are fiendishly clever and genuinely good (the one where you have to use the glider to erase the buried bomb comes to mind), but so much of CCLP2 seems to be made with an approach along the lines of "the editor allows me to use tiles and combinations that weren't in CC1, so let's use all of them, even when the level doesn't demand it!" I remember my excitement at discovering the existence of said set...and then my immense disappointment when I actually sat down to play it.

 

 

I suspect that, somewhere out there, someone has made a level in which Chip starts in the northwest corner and has to make his way to the exit square in the southeast corner. The entire grid appears empty, but most of the tiles are actually buried traps.

 

I will come forward and say that PB Gourami.dat had a level like this. There was a level earlier in the set where the traps were visible on the top layer, so it is more like Totally Unfair but a much dumber concept.

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I suspect that, somewhere out there, someone has made a level in which Chip starts in the northwest corner and has to make his way to the exit square in the southeast corner. The entire grid appears empty, but most of the tiles are actually buried traps.

 

EricS1#85 (Virtual Unreality), which is funny because you just praised Yet Another Puzzle which is by the same creator (Y)

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Hey, no one said that anyone who makes a bad level is incapable of making a good level, or vice-versa.

 

 

Heck, even Orson Welles made Mr. Arkadin. ;)

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EricS1#85 (Virtual Unreality)

 

Oh man...

 

After viewing that, I'd like to suggest that the next ChipsCompetition have a goal along the lines of "Make the most ridiculously annoying, arbitrary, artificially difficult level possible." It'd be hilarious, if nothing else.

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Traps under locks should not appear much in the future, since it's not lynx-compatible. I made a whole level of keys under doors called Key Hell -- one of the worst levels I ever made.

 

Dave, it's also one of your most memorable and one of my favorites! I solved it blind and then optimized it using a map, and enjoyed it very much. It's a concept that really can't work without invalid tiles, the maze has several solutions, and not every lock is guesswork (though many are, but they aren't surprising cooks, since you know you have to guess correctly or it's cooked).

 

-Miika

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Dave, it's also one of your most memorable and one of my favorites! I solved it blind and then optimized it using a map, and enjoyed it very much. It's a concept that really can't work without invalid tiles, the maze has several solutions, and not every lock is guesswork (though many are, but they aren't surprising cooks, since you know you have to guess correctly or it's cooked).

 

-Miika

 

Well thanks! No one has ever told me they liked Key Hell.

 

I think that there may eventually be another set with invalid tiles, but it will be a while in coming. A lot of the things you CAN do you really SHOULDN'T do. I had originally planned on having some in geodave4.ccl, however most of my concepts were just silly or easily converted to Lynx-compatibility.

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No offense to anyone whose levels feature significantly in CCLP2, but that set just smacks of a kid who's just acquired a great new toy but doesn't know just what to do with it. Like a child who sits down at a piano for the first time and just starts banging on the keys. It's a lot of fun for that person, but also pretty annoying for anyone within earshot.

 

Completely agree. I don't think CCLP2 was comprised entirely of these sorts of levels, but I feel like the narrow pool of submissions allowed them to get in, and many of them were created in the period when submitting custom sets was just starting to become popular around the community. Invalid tiles, random force floors, and the like - although not bad things inherently - were used in ways that, in hindsight, probably weren't quite the best ("Keep Trying," anyone?).

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Completely agree. I don't think CCLP2 was comprised entirely of these sorts of levels, but I feel like the narrow pool of submissions allowed them to get in, and many of them were created in the period when submitting custom sets was just starting to become popular around the community. Invalid tiles, random force floors, and the like - although not bad things inherently - were used in ways that, in hindsight, probably weren't quite the best ("Keep Trying," anyone?).

 

From what I remember as well, some levels that were originally voted in CCLP2 didn't get in because the staff couldn't get hold of their original creators, but I might be wrong.

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I'm really sad and disappointed at the human nature. No one seemed to like CCLP2, apart from Josh and I. And you guys are making all sorts of fun with it, bashing it more and more when it was already bashed on soooo much...

 

That really reveals me that the mind will experience several positive happenings to fall back to a state of neutrality (or even pessimism/negativity/hate) at the very first annoyance -- which of these there are a very minimal few handful of in CCLP2.

 

Saddening.

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I very much enjoyed CCLP2. And there were not any truly ridiculous levels (like traps under floor everywhere.) I also enjoyed Ultimate Chip, which had many MS-only levels. There may come a day when an MS-only set is wanted again.

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That really reveals me that the mind will experience several positive happenings to fall back to a state of neutrality (or even pessimism/negativity/hate) at the very first annoyance -- which of these there are a very minimal few handful of in CCLP2.

 

...wait. You think that YCTAOFNT is full of "fake difficulty," yet you enjoy most of CCLP2?

 

 

::Scratches head::

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There are a few others whose names I can't recall at the time, but seriously: there were a great number of levels in that set that would have made me go berserk if:

 

1. I didn't have an editor

 

OR

 

2. I was motivated, by whatever perverse force, to complete the levels without looking in said editor

 

 

 

 

 

....like Wormwood. GREAT, GREAT level...except for all the firetrapped blocks. Seriously?

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Wormwood was a great level. Blocked Trap was part of that 15 indeed.

 

Also, just saying, can you please try not doubleposting as it's possible to put everything in your post via editing or multiquote...

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Fact - CCLP2 would have been better if those 13 levels were included from the dudes they couldn't get permission from (Y)

Fact - CCLP2 is fun for at least two-thirds of it.

Fact - as I've said before, CCLP2 is pretty much a Tyrethali Ansrath and Eric Schmidt collab set.

Fact - CCLP2 is fine (or better).

 

Actually these are all opinions.

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Yeah, sorry, I'm lazy about multiquoting/editing. I've been spoiled by forums where that kind of thing flies. ;)

 

 

What were the 13 "lost" levels?

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Fact - as I've said before, CCLP2 is pretty much a Tyrethali Ansrath and Eric Schmidt collab set.

 

Actually, add Dave Borgman too, he got a good stack in as well.

 

But what I'm really saying is that those 15-20 levels shouldn't be over-talked about.

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Actually, add Dave Borgman too, he got a good stack in as well.

 

But what I'm really saying is that those 15-20 levels shouldn't be over-talked about.

 

Well, Dave Borgman really didn't contribute positively to the set... :unsure:

 

And there were 13 levels that were to be in CCLP2, but didn't get in because the designers couldn't be contacted. They can be found at the bottom of this page under honorable mentions. Bowling appeared in CCLP3 anyway. And Pipe Dream would have been one of the best levels in CCLP2, had it made it in.

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CCLP2 was a great set. There were some levels that I do agree, never should of been included, Block Away! being one of these on my list. The set really takes on a different prospective from CC1 and CCLP3. Personally I think it sums up the difficulty that should be expected from a 2nd sequel; not as hard as CCLP3, but harder than CC1.

 

The thing I don't understand about CCLP2 is the fact that the level slots are completely off. For example, Checkboard I, being one of the hardest levels in the set is only level 72. But you take on Bounce and Joyride I, both of which can be completed in 1 minute, are in 106 & 107 respectively. However, Warehouse II seems to be placed at a perfect slot of level 122. The difficulty of CCLP2 doesn't seem to raise at all when it comes to progressing through the levels, which is something I love when it comes to CC.

 

I am also saddened that only Rock and I are truly the ones that prefer CCLP2 over CCLP3 or CC1, but its fine. I guess were the only ones who see the purpose of CCLP2?

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I'll have to track those down. "Bowling" was a fine CCLP3 level.

 

 

 

I have no idea which authors were responsible for which levels, so I really can't comment on this. I'm also speaking from the POV of a Chipster who isn't terribly brilliant (or dedicated, or interested in high scores), so take from this what you will. I just think that CC1 and CCLP3 were, for the most part, a lot of fun to play through, while CCLP2 was, overall, not much "fun." The problems with the set range far beyond the 15-20 "obviously" ridiculous levels.

 

I don't mean to criticize anyone personally, or to even suggest that the set was a waste. On the whole, it was probably very beneficial to the CC community to have such a set and that sort of community-oriented, "let's collaborate on a project" mindset (wasn't it? I don't know, I wasn't around then; I'm just guessing here).

 

But, for whatever reason, CCLP3 is far more satisfying, than its predecessor, imo. Maybe it was the greater pool of levels invovled in voting, maybe it's the Lynx-compatability requirement, maybe it was the tastes of the CC community reacting to CCLP2 and its successes/failrues...I don't know.

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And there were 13 levels that were to be in CCLP2, but didn't get in because the designers couldn't be contacted. They can be found at the bottom of this page under honorable mentions. Bowling appeared in CCLP3 anyway. And Pipe Dream would have been one of the best levels in CCLP2, had it made it in.

 

And because of that we got Exit Chip in CCLP2. Hooray! :chipwin:

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It's not only about levels with :fireblock: or anything else, like I said. But those are far from the hardest ever...

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And because of that we got Exit Chip in CCLP2. Hooray! :chipwin:

 

Call me crazy, but I actually like Exit Chip. :D Although this might be more due to memories of first discovering/solving the level, plus the fact that I don't think I've even played it since 2002, back when invalid tiles were still cool... :D

 

To elaborate a bit on the memories - when I first discovered the level in EricS1 and read the hint (not present in the CCLP2 version) that read something like "There's no way you can possibly beat this level, but I can - muahahaha!" and after playing it for a while and finding that the obvious chips were booby-trapped, I actually thought the hint was serious (or at least the first half of it) and that Eric meant that the level was unsolvable... I'm not even sure if I figured it out it was solvable until CCLP2's release, at which point I realized it must be... :) Even with all the hidden items, it was still a good feeling to finally figure out the solution that I once thought didn't exist...

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Call me crazy, but I actually like Exit Chip. :D Although this might be more due to memories of first discovering/solving the level, plus the fact that I don't think I've even played it since 2002, back when invalid tiles were still cool... :D

 

To elaborate a bit on the memories - when I first discovered the level in EricS1 and read the hint (not present in the CCLP2 version) that read something like "There's no way you can possibly beat this level, but I can - muahahaha!" and after playing it for a while and finding that the obvious chips were booby-trapped, I actually thought the hint was serious (or at least the first half of it) and that Eric meant that the level was unsolvable... I'm not even sure if I figured it out it was solvable until CCLP2's release, at which point I realized it must be... :) Even with all the hidden items, it was still a good feeling to finally figure out the solution that I once thought didn't exist...

 

I must admit, playing through this levels back in 2002 must have been quite an experience. I could see levels like Exit Chip and Warehouse II being difficult without solutions, and I've always wondered, how long have invalid tiles existed in Chip's Challenge? Were editors made to allow them or was the game allowed to do this from the start?

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I must admit, playing through this levels back in 2002 must have been quite an experience. I could see levels like Exit Chip and Warehouse II being difficult without solutions, and I've always wondered, how long have invalid tiles existed in Chip's Challenge? Were editors made to allow them or was the game allowed to do this from the start?

 

I couldn't solve Warehouse II without a solution, but I'm pretty sure I did Exit Chip on my own (except for looking in the editor, of course... :)).

 

CC wasn't really "intended" for invalid tiles (hence why they are invalid... ;)). I assume they were possible since ChipEdit was first released, at which point people started making levels that had them... So CC was technically "allowed" to have them from the beginning, but there were no custom levels around yet... :D

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I did both without solutions, and I liked Exit Chip as well, so you're not alone, I guess :P

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The thing is, the developers never programmed or tested invalid tiles into the game, and never used them, so that's why some of them crash the game while others just have some of the strangest effects (which make sense if you think about it). It just so happens that because the way the game was programmed, most of them have weird gameplay effects that can be used as new never-before-seen puzzle elements.

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"Commit Suicide?" is one of my favorite CCLP3 levels, even though no one is going to get it on their first try (unless they've looked at a map).

 

The thing is, you can use logic to figure it out eventually. The long run of chips in the corridor after the force floors are a dead giveaway; actually, I think the level would have been better if there had only been two or three chips there. It would have made the solution a bit more difficult to discover.

 

 

Edit: (Spoiler alert, for those who haven't played this level)

 

The reason for the many chips in the corridor was to make a second puzzle. The first puzzle is to get all the chips (since the chips in the corridor are not visible until you're in it, the player thinks she must get all other chips). The second puzzle is to get as few chips as possible, since you know you have to take all the chips in the corridor.

 

Maybe this 2-puzzle-thing could have been done in a more elegant way, but I couldn't think of one at that time...

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...I guess that makes sense. The two-puzzle idea is definitely an interesting one.

 

My thinking was that it would have been a much tougher "single" puzzle had the chips in the corridor not tipped the player off that the key is to refrain from collecting chips. It basically ensures that the "first" puzzle works only once. An empty corridor would have had me scratching my head a lot longer.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I still think it's a great level!

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MSCC, not CC. <_<

 

Well, in theory even the original Lynx game could have allowed for invalid tiles too if someone had figured out how to make custom levels for it....but yes, I meant MSCC. ;)

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Well, I'm no Epyx expert, but certainly the hardware was different and so was the software. It's my theory (with no evidence) that there were only capital letters available (thus the level titles), that wrap-around was a problem (thus the walls) and that the tiles and "creatures" (including Chip and the blocks) were processed in a different way than the "map". So, if I was forced to guess I'd say there was not a way to include invalid tiles the way MSCC allows, since there was probably only one "level".

 

Someone out there knows if I'm right, but I doubt that person reads this forum.

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It's my theory (with no evidence) that ... the tiles and "creatures" (including Chip and the blocks) were processed in a different way than the "map". So, if I was forced to guess I'd say there was not a way to include invalid tiles the way MSCC allows, since there was probably only one "level".

That's my theory too. I think the map only contained the static tiles, and the creatures were all defined in a creature list.

Somebody who understands Perl might be able to figure it out from the c4 script - since that can actually convert Lynx ROM files.

 

- Madhav.

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Wasn't it postulated that there is only "one layer" when non-creature tiles are involved and two layers whenever a creature tile (Chip, monsters, blocks) sits on top of a non-creature tile?

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Wasn't it postulated that there is only "one layer" when non-creature tiles are involved and two layers whenever a creature tile (Chip, monsters, blocks) sits on top of a non-creature tile?

 

That's the way you'd try to think about it when mapping to the MSCC file format. But in reality, (perhaps) there was only layer and the creatures were "positioned" at various locations on that layer.

 

- Madhav.

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